It becomes quite amusing
 

When you break the rules:

Today I was a bad laddie, had a bit of fun using the in game mail, anyway, I was reported for it, (some muppet took exception to my humour).

The punishment a round long ban on using the in game mail system.

Not happy, I checked the Manual at the time and then went along to MH to see if i could get it undone.

The Manual at that time made no mention of removal of mail use.

It referred to a warning for 1st offence and possible closure for further offences.

So along I went and pointed this out, however that made no odds that was the punishment and there word was final, so I checked and checked again, and nope nothing.

Complained via an MH ticket and to Ace in the Channel and PM, he insisted it was a proper action but then admitted it was not published in the Manual.

So quite rightly I suggested that the action (punishment) was unreasonable as it was not a published Sanction.

So what did he do, he changed the manual and rules to include it.

Nice Going, lets not enforce the rules as published, lets just add to them on the fly as we feel like it.

Great way to put confidence in players.

PS: I am not complaining about the Punishment it is probably warranted, but it is unreasonable to apply a punishment against a player that is not within the published rules and regulations at the time of the offence.

Re: It becomes quite amusing
 

Is this for real?

Re: It becomes quite amusing
 

Unfortunately yes

:-)

Not only can I not mail in game, I cannot use the alliance mail either.

Good innit

Re: It becomes quite amusing
 

Feels strange to judge as he used to enforce these rules just saying I wouldn't have reported it I like abit of banter in mails but most players do report it just to be well to put it nicely idiots add a mature language filter if ya can't handle abit of fun Jesus 3 rounds ago there was loads of swearing and saying I'm gunna rape ya mum from another player to me it's abit of fun it's the Internet don't take it so serious who ever reported it

Re: It becomes quite amusing
 

oh no... something isn't in the manual... the same manual that hasn't been updated since what... round 25?

Re: It becomes quite amusing
 

can you at least use punctuation to finish this 600 word sentence of yours? It keeps repeating in my head...

Re: It becomes quite amusing
 

They updated the manual and banned you from the ingame mail system? Beers for everyone!

Re: It becomes quite amusing
 

My apologises hanzi I had been using punc in previous posts and I go and forgot will keep it in mind in future.

Re: It becomes quite amusing
 

I think i will take Judges side in this.. as he is clearly saying he has no qualms with receiving punishmnet for his actions its the fact that when he commited the offence there was no WRITTEN RULE to warrant giving him the punishment he recieved.

Ace then went along and covered his tracks by adding the rule into the manual.

Its just another sign of the MH's unprofessionalism and Aces blatant incompetence at his job

Time for a change?? Yes please!!!

Re: It becomes quite amusing
 

any comment from ace?

Re: It becomes quite amusing
 

It does sound like a bit of a win-win doesn't it!

Re: It becomes quite amusing
 

If I can have a "life's unfair, deal with it" clause I don't see why MH's can't.

Re: It becomes quite amusing
 

The MHs have always been a group of muppets, so I can't say this surprises me :p

Re: It becomes quite amusing
 

Regarding the "not a published Sanction" argument, it was published in the round 34 announcement and was designed to reduce the number of accounts that had to be closed...

The fact that your ban is for the duration of the round might be unreasonable given that it could have been made temporary, but that depends on the nature of the "abuse".

Re: It becomes quite amusing
 

Oh, the irony of it...

Re: It becomes quite amusing
 

I would like to point out a discreptancy between the beta server and the game server

http://game.planetarion.com/manual.p...rn=58145929118

http://beta.planetarion.com/manual.p...rn=58145929118

serious questions now need to be asked about this

_edit_

Any comments appoco?

I now believe judge's story without a shadow of a doubt.

_edit2_

I have now taken screen shots of both versons of the manual section in question and R42 & R43 changes In the event of further editing.

Re: It becomes quite amusing
 

Thanks Pais

As for the rest of you crowing and downing beers (save me one please)

The more serious issue and one that affects all the players, is that the Manual (Rules and Regulations) are integral to the game, the forums are not.

The implication of this is that when you sign up your planet (and pay) you are entering an agreement to behave as per the rules, those rules then become part of the conditions of sale.

I as a consumer (and everyone else who pays) do not expect the terms and conditions to change after purchasing a product, that in any EU country is in breach of consumer law, and I am pretty sure that it also applies in the USA where the game is hosted.

Re: It becomes quite amusing
 

I completely agree with Ace in this case actually, and for those who know me, this should speak volumes.

Re: It becomes quite amusing
 

Actually, although i find this rather amusing, Ace and any oher MH manager in the future doesnt have to cover his tracks as it blatently says here in the terms and conditions when you signup:

Miscellaneous cheating

A.Attempts to encourage other planets to break the rules will be considered a breach of this agreement

B.The transfer of accounts to other users is not permitted. Passing on your login details to another user is not permitted, even if they are subsequently the only user to access your account.

C.As newer methods of cheating are discovered, you authorise us to interpret all data logged about your account towards detecting these methods. Actions which are deemed to be cheating are not restricted to the list given in these terms and conditions and may be added to at any time, and you authorise us to do so


As you can see from section 'c' it says pretty much that as new actions take place therefore the MH is allowed to adapt the rules/change them based on new actions from the players. This used to be more clear in the eula which used to read:

Originally Posted by EULA
3. We may amend this Agreement at any time in our sole discretion.
Amendments shall be communicated to you at the time you log into your
Account. Such amendments shall be effective whenever we make the
notification available for your review.


This was from the origonal EULA Which seems to have vanished as i cant see it anywhere now. And gess it isnt valid anymore... but anyway From what i can see Ace has the right to edit/change rules based on actions from the players as he see fit.

Re: It becomes quite amusing
 

As you stated these are no longer in the published EULA (i will take your word for it).

But for Ace to in fact change the rules in accordance with the above he is obliged to tell ALL the players about it, as you stated at 3 above.

He did not, he did not even tell me prior to my complaining about the sanction. I found out when i went to my mail page and saw a header saying I have been banned from using mail for the rest of the round.

"You have been banned from sending messages. The ban last for the remainder of the round."

The grammar is terrible, but that aside, that sanction was not published within the terms and conditions or within the rules and regulations in the manual at the time of the offence nor of the imposition of the sanction.

It is therefore unreasonable to apply it and it may also be in breach of consumer law (the sale of goods act)

Re: It becomes quite amusing
 

does the abusive mail that judge sent constitutes as cheating?

Did anyone else receive notification ingame
I didn't sign up a planet as yet ... as I may late start
But I had asked around to see if there was any
I would also like to point out that the changes made to the .game manual
happened after the offence that judge made and penalty received

I am also looking through these links (I have also screen shot these in the event of editing) with interest
http://www.jagex.com/terms/terms.ws
http://game.planetarion.com/terms.pl

I am now looking into the sales of goods act
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1979/54

Re: It becomes quite amusing
 

Paisley, the change was made to the manual, not any of the three things you agree to when you sign up.

Re: It becomes quite amusing
 

i remember someone getting a round long ban for offensive mails some time ago as well, but i forget who it was, would that person like to own up ?

Re: It becomes quite amusing
 

The change was made to the manual AFTER judge sent he abusive mail and been penalised by the MH team.

Re: It becomes quite amusing
 

Your point being? It still has nothing to do with the fact that Judge did something very offensive, and broke the rules. Instead of getting closed completely, he only got his pa mail privileges taken away from him. I dont see why an easier penalty than stipulated should be a cause of great anger.

Also nevermind the fact that the manual is a tool for people to look up things and sometimes are hopelessly outdated, with a lot of things actually that has changed actually not written down in it.

When I as a support team member comes over a place where the manual doesnt fully cover or needs to be changed, I change it. Would you prefer that we didnt?

Re: It becomes quite amusing
 

It comes back to again questioning how competent are the MH(s) are.
1 way to have resolved this is ... "judge your actions merit closure, I can either close you or if you accept that we disable the ingame mail feature then I can aviod closing your account" Instead of this mockery of a cover up

There is a difference between updating a manual and attempting to cover your tracks... again it comes back to the above.

again refer to the above.

Re: It becomes quite amusing
 

I've not had time to read all of this but:

1) Firstly, I think this has, as normal, been blown out of proportion. The current terms & conditions say Judge could be closed and you're complaining that he isn't. That's pretty harsh, guys.

2) the beta manual is way out of date and hasn't been touched in almost a year. Trying to compare the two manuals for differences is pointless; the only thing taken from the beta manuals is the government / race / stats data.

The only line added (I think) is:
"Same goes for the in game mail system, If you send out abusive mail(s) a ban will be set on sending mail(s) to other users for X days (ban time will be set based on the nature of the mail(s)."
And, to be honest, it already says:
"(Another way of punishment might be introduced during or after this round)"
Judge already acknowledges this rule setup (below)


3) there was an in-game slagging match initiated by Judge between two planets

4) after being told he was being reported, Judge said:

and then the slagging match continued.

So, he's now complaining that the rules that he said he knew and used to enforce are being enforced on him, and he's scrabbling around for an excuse. I have no sympathy whatsoever for Judge and hopefully this illustrates why. Also, he says that he cannot be closed - which is in direct contradiction to the terms and conditions.

Re: It becomes quite amusing
 

Changing the manual to reflect game changes that are defacto and running under a current game affects no one other than to inform them of the change.

Changing the Rules and Regulations to suit a personal whim, and without consultation of the user(s) who have signed up and paid to play the game under those rules and regulations which are refered to in the EULA here >> http://game.planetarion.com/terms.pl
and Jagex's rules here >> http://www.jagex.com/terms/terms.ws
Is not only an abuse of there position it is also contrary to the sale of goods act.

If you purchase a product (be it physical or ethereal) you expect that product to function in accordance with the published information, you buy that product on that basis.

For example you go along to The Hatters and buy a Season Ticket for this Season and it states in there published sales information that it allows you to attend 20 Home League games and and 5 Home Cup Games. You bought that Season ticket on the expectation that you would get that for your money.

Along you go to the Match and when you get there, they tell you that your Ticket only allows you the right to buy a Ticket for the match and that will be an extra £20 please.

Obviously your annoyed, but decide to pay the £20 on the expectation that you can dispute it later.

Your write to them and explain the problem, they reply that "yes the season ticket was sold on that basis, but we decided to put up the prices as we bought a new player"

That would not only be unreasonable it would also be in breach of the sale of goods act, and constitute an unfair contract.

The same applies to a Planetarion Player who pays to play.

Re: It becomes quite amusing
 

Nice one appoco

what I knew or did not know, is pretty much irrelevant, the fact remains that players including me signed up under a published set of rules, that constituted a contract of sale of a product.

My offence should have been dealt with under the PUBLISHED rules as per the manual, not as per whatever may have been known or not known (by me or anyone else).

Your position is untenable both in terms of fairness to the players and in breach of the sale of goods act.

As Jagex are in the UK they have to comply with the sale of goods act, and I will be pursuing this at my earliest convenience, I have already put together the logs from IRC and from this forum along with all the published rules and T&C's and will be forwarding them to the Consumer Watchdog for there consideration.

As for your comment about the Beta Manual not being relevant pretty much says it all, as it was an exact duplicate of the game manual until altered by Ace to reflect his changes, and is therefore evidence of him doing so, and of the rules prior to his changes.

These are not empty threats, the whole case was a joke from start to finish, it became serious when Ace decided to change the rules on the fly.

Anything else is irrelevant

Re: It becomes quite amusing
 

I shall be awaiting their reply with great anticipation!

Re: It becomes quite amusing
 

Have you included what you said in the mails Judge ?

Re: It becomes quite amusing
 

Are you still going on? What cant you grasp?

I clearly shown you this:


C.As newer methods of cheating are discovered, you authorise us to interpret all data logged about your account towards detecting these methods. Actions which are deemed to be cheating are not restricted to the list given in these terms and conditions and may be added to at any time, and you authorise us to do so

No he isnt obliged to inform you of anything. He took your actions asoffencive/against the rules and implemented a change. This is stated on the signup page WHICH YOU agreed too.. its irrelivent if Ace has now changed the manual after, hes allowed to do so STATED QUITE CLEARLY in that section whch can be found ON THE SIGNUP PAGE! And he did inform you... you went to him and he told you. So again i fail to grasp what exactly your complaining about? Im pointing out Ace can adapt/change the rules how he sees fit, and thats his right.


Paisley i thought you would have a bit more inteligence then this. Although i agree Ace could of send out an ingame mail of the change the point still remains hes allowed to make this adjustment as i was when i implemented the support planet rule (which you were all for i might add) And in reply to your refference off 'was he cheating?' well its listed under 'misc' so to me that also falls under abuse which Judge was clearly doing.

Re: It becomes quite amusing
 

The content of the Mail messages is hardly relevant, as I have already accepted I broke the rules, I stated this quite clearly at the outset, or did you not read that?

What is relevant is how the case was dealt with, and the subsequent changes made to the rules and regulations undertaken by Ace.

If the case had been dealt with under the rules as published (at the time of the offence) there would be no cause for complaint.

Which quite clearly stated that the sanction would be a warning and a subsequent account closure if it was repeated. I received no warning, had I done so, I would have responded to it.

Only after a player has been warned and then re-offends would an account closure be warranted. (that has always been the case)

The fact that Ace decided to apply a rule "that only existed elsewhere" and not published in the Manual under the rules and regulations, and not referred to anywhere in the User Agreement, nor under Jagex rules is clearly the issue.

Appoco's bluster about what I know or do not know is all smoke and mirrors, the fact remains that the "rule" and consequential sanction was not published in the manual, and therefore does not constitute part of the agreement I signed up to and paid for at the time of purchase.

Re: It becomes quite amusing
 

Quoted from your earlier post:

Originally Posted by Assassin
Originally Posted by EULA
3. We may amend this Agreement at any time in our sole discretion.
Amendments shall be communicated to you at the time you log into your
Account. Such amendments shall be effective whenever we make the
notification available for your review.

As neither of the above actions were undertaken prior to the sanction or the rules change Ace is in error and in breach of the published information (rules) of the game.

Re: It becomes quite amusing
 

And again quoted from my origonal post:



As i clearly stated that USED to be in the EULA so again he doesnt have to inform you of anything as this no longer exists. But section C under the MISC Cheating act does.. which again can be found in terms and conditions on the signup page which you have even pasted on several occasions. End off?

Re: It becomes quite amusing
 

Frankly, you have no leg to stand on and a ban from messaging is very lenient.
i'd have closed you considering your history in enforcing the rules

Re: It becomes quite amusing
 

Actually he does have to inform me, if the term and conditions for using a product or service I have paid for are changed, that requirement is in English Law under the sale of goods act and under consumer law under "unfair terms and conditions" I could go and find the relevant information, but you can google as well as anyone, so I leave it with you.

Re: It becomes quite amusing
 

haha, awesome

and where did you obtain that little snippet of wisdom?

Making fun of people in wheelchairs is hardly the way to win friends and influence people.

Once again the skills at use by the Planetarion Team are wonderful to behold

Re: It becomes quite amusing
 

you arent sold a product, you're sold a licence to a service which can be withdrawn at any time

Re: It becomes quite amusing
 

That, to me is a confession of guilt wrt breaking the rules.
which in turn suggests that you accept that you broke the terms and conditions

Re: It becomes quite amusing
 

http://oxforddictionaries.com/definition/abusive
http://oxforddictionaries.com/definition/cheat

<paisley> question judge ... did your abusive mail gain you any sort of tactical advantage?
<Judge> nope
<Judge> none
<Judge> it was me having some fun
<paisley> cheers

clear definitions of cheating and abuse Can you demonstrate to me assassin how judge got a tactical advantage?

Re: It becomes quite amusing
 

Hmm? So he didnt inform you, although you went and spoke with him which you said here:

Therefore not only did they inform you of the punishmet via pm they also did it over a support ticket. So again... the problem is? as phil has already pointed out depending on the mails content plus the fact you used to police these rules i also would of closed you (this is now 2 former MH managers stating this)

But again you already agreed you deserve to be punished. And your only argument from what i can see was to point out this punishment wasnt listed in the manual, correct. However as ive pointed out the option to add a rule is (under section C of the Misc rules and conditions) So therefore again... you have no leg to stand on.

Re: It becomes quite amusing
 

the definition for abusive says nothing about requiring a tactical advantage.
Are you trolling, Paisley?
trolling is probably banned by the forum rules somewhere, they are quite comprehensive in their loopholes

Re: It becomes quite amusing
 

at no time did i deny that i broke the rules, at no time did i deny that the rules (as published) existed.

You are missing the entire point of the argument, the point is Ace Changed the rules and the Manual to suit the circumstance of his applied sanction, a sanction that should not be applied as it is not within the rules.

The rules and regulations page clearly stated that the sanction for "mail abuse" was warning and subsequent closure on re-offence.

It is custom and practice within the MH team to send a warning and for that to be dealt with, then if a person offends AFTER the warning, he (or she) may be closed. There is never a case of simply closing someone for an offence he has not been prior warned of, so to jump straight to closure would again not be in keeping with the published rules or custom and practice.

This would of course be different if it was a serious case like someone hacking the servers or exploiting the game in some way to obtain an advantage, which would then of course warrant immediate closure to protect the game.

A whole other ball game....

Is that to simple for you or do you want me to put it in words of one syllable?

Re: It becomes quite amusing
 

He needs a tactical advantage? Hes abusing somone ingame, therefore hes breaching the rules. This falls under Misc which isnt farming, multing, or cheating. Its for abusive bhavour, which as you well know can be classed as mails, planet names, gal names etc etc. So as i stated above section c clearly states a MH can change the punishment as they see fit. Hard to understand?

Re: It becomes quite amusing
 

I spoke with ace and submitted support/mh requests AFTER the ban was imposed not before.

Re: It becomes quite amusing
 

Not at all I have respect for assassin (previous posts can back this up) and did not mean to cause him offense and if so I apologise, same time I do not apprieate his open remarks on me ... but I need to make a point on the differences between cheating and abuse and how those differences are key.

Re: It becomes quite amusing
 

Now, for the love of god, can we move on?

Re: It becomes quite amusing
 

You are not obliged to stick your nose in where it is not wanted.

Re: It becomes quite amusing
 

Your point being? They dont have to inform you before hand. He made a decision on how to punish you, he did it, then told you. If i was going to arrest you im not going to ring you first and tell you before turning up at your front door.