R65 Ship Stats proposals
 

Just to get the ball rolling...
Im not a spreadsheet expert so can't figure out how to do EMP resistances.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...WDo/edit#gid=0
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...it?usp=sharing

What I do propose is that stealers don't die (meaning it is possible to land with losses to initial fleet), limited t2 targeting set of stats... T2 effientcy at 80%
with Emp effiencies of 150-165% t1 and 100-120% t2 and the stealers fire AFTER pods. (Something a bit different after many a round of same old set up) Scorpions and Fireblades were added for ingal 0 loss defence against fi/co lol waves but dont stop pods from capping.

Fleets
Ter De Can roid hulls 2 terrans, also terrans with low wyvern count.
Can roid Caths with low anti de (0 loss)
Can roid hulls 2 ziks with low cutlass
Can roid Etd.

Ter Bs/Cr Can roid terrans with hulls 2 (early game) subject to ship counts
Can roid Caths (0 loss)
Xans (the fleet is designed to cap peacekeepers to aid the players de fleet)
Can Roid ziks

Cath Co Can roid any Race in theory
Cath Cr Can roid any Race in theory

Xan Fi Can roid any Race in theory
xan Fr Can roid hulls 2 terran
Can Roid Caths
Can Roid Ziks
Can Roid Etd

Zik Co Can roid any Race in theory subject to losses/cap of new ships
Zik Cr Can roid any Race in theory subject to losses/cap of new ships

Etd Fi Can Roid Caths
Can Roid Xans
Can Roid Ziks
Etd De Can Roid all races in theory.


Comment and add your own set of stats in thread.

Re: R65 Ship Stats proposals
 

Spreadsheet is access restricted



:)

Re: R65 Ship Stats proposals
 

try the 2nd link

Re: R65 Ship Stats proposals
 

Please explain some unusual features:
- Fireblade(BS) stealing FI, Scorpion(CR) stealing CO
- Terran DE not firing against CR
- BS not firing against FR while the opposite applies.

Re: R65 Ship Stats proposals
 

I think you should consider getting rid of the zero loss ships if the steal ships aren't going to die.

Much like xan fi targeting xan fi, we have discovered that zero loss ships arent good for the universe

There are some interesting things in here that the community may just instantly shoot down because of the abuse of zik ships not dying.

Etd DE freezing and stealing with the same class into a class that they have pods for seems cray cray

Re: R65 Ship Stats proposals
 

I remember asking apoco ages ago it isn't feasible to have a steal1 and a steal2 at the same time. I also remember that r14 (these stats are influenced from that round) was one of the most fun rounds played.

having ingal fireblades (a reason for xans to get hulls 3) and scorpions (can be ingal or can cap co ships on attack if the target forgets to run those ship types) is an option but remember they don't stop cap of roids as they fire afterwards.+ they are low damaged aswell (sub 300 D/C)

It is quite easy for terrans to cap de class anti cr on attacks, just target a xan (r14 was tried and tested)

The reason is to encourage terrans to attack with bs/cr on xans.

Zik will be a hard race to play due to having cap ships that fire after pods. but with the right steals it can be rewarding.


It was 1 way to make playing Etd exciting.

Re: R65 Ship Stats proposals
 

Stealers that fire at classes that cannot fire back at them are a terrible idea.

Re: R65 Ship Stats proposals
 

worse case fireblades and scorpions can be removed.

Edit - scorpions and fireblades removed

Re: R65 Ship Stats proposals
 

Just to say:
1) combat engine does support steal ships not dying (or only dying as a fraction of value rather than total value stolen, e.g. currently it's 100%)
2) definitely agree with no 0 loss steal ships
3) in Round 14 the stats were set up so each higher class stole each lower class and no other steal ships were on the lower class to stop the potential (or abuse/ship farming) of steal chains. This is a little less of an issue with the covert op stealers but still gives me some concern. I feel comfortable with that as a principle; having terran but not cath or xan having steal feels a bit unfair maybe
4) I do like the general idea and steal ships not dying but firing after pods is interesting (and once we double check the combat engine with some test combat might well be possible) but I think we might need to re-examine the stats - maybe even reroll R14 stats more closely with ETD - but I'd like a bit more structure around how the steal ships are set up, as per point 3)

Re: R65 Ship Stats proposals
 

The main reason for the pods firing before the stealers was to make it easy for MHs to spot obvious farming.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...WDo/edit#gid=0

to take onboard of point 3

Added locust a cath frig class anti co steal ship
Added Fireblade a Xan De class anti fi steal ship

Re: R65 Ship Stats proposals
 

I'll say it (since no one else seems to want to bite the bullet) .... stealers not dying leads to abuse. The only question is how blatant the abuse will be.

The game was changed to prevent this abuse and I haven't seen any reason (let alone a valid one) why we should reverse that change.

Re: R65 Ship Stats proposals
 

I would say it could be worth the risk or it maybe another 40 odd rounds before something like this will be tried again.

Re: R65 Ship Stats proposals
 

If something is taken out of the game because it is awful or broken, there is no reason to put it back in just to see if it will work this time.

There is no situation in which stealing at no cost is going to be balanced, therefore there is no point in 'risking' it.

Re: R65 Ship Stats proposals
 

that is the thing stats like r14 (where stealers didnt die) where far from awful and are infact one of the most fun rounds played (it was 1up v lch and ND v Reunion if memory serves)

If memory recalls r18 was the last round stealers didn't die I was trying to find threads for perspective from that time.

There was complaints of cheating and overzealous fleetcatchers (I do recall r18 subh ziks were dedicated fleetcatchers)

From what I have heard that planetarion is still being joked as NAPtarion and prehaps a more warlike conditions are needed.

Re: R65 Ship Stats proposals
 

What I do suggest is come up with a set of stats that will be fun to play and have some scope to fake meta classes

Re: R65 Ship Stats proposals
 

May as well be suggesting world peace

Re: R65 Ship Stats proposals
 

Here's an idea, why dont we use this rounds stats for next round, and change it so it's a little more balanced.

Re: R65 Ship Stats proposals
 

I agree with the principle - but not with the start point.

I'd be happier if we started with a set which complied with the supposed attributes of each race and perhaps used the "original" ship names (and targets).

If "minor" changes were then made each round in line with "issues" raised in previous rounds this would have (at least) two benefits:

Players would understand which ships did what without having to study the manual every round;
Ridiculously unbalanced sets could be eliminated.

In addition to this, the "back story" could be restored to the game so that it had some kind of consistency.
This would allow players to go back to the "suspension of disbelief" which is so important to the enjoyment of games like this which (as we all know) is, in essence, just a spreadsheet.

Re: R65 Ship Stats proposals
 

Seeing the complete and utter lack of MH activity in the winter round, and the blatant cheating that resulted, I no longer believe no-loss stealing can work in PA.

Re: R65 Ship Stats proposals
 

No-loss steal was shot down by the statsmafia way before the xmas round commenced.
Cheating is just one issue of it, hence why now other "solutions" is being discussed, like 90% loss when stealing.

Re: R65 Ship Stats proposals
 

Because the issues with it are blatantly obvious. Zik would be either balanced for the majority and insanely strong for a few 'lucky' people, or it would be weak for most to prevent those extreme cases from taking over the top 10. Neither is a desirable outcome.

Suicide stealing with salvage limiting value gains to ~120% under ideal circumstances is the best way to do it. I don't see why there needs to be a solution to a problem that doesn't exist.

Re: R65 Ship Stats proposals
 

http://pirate.planetarion.com/showthread.php?t=201088

Id rather have the discussion there to not derail this thread.

Re: R65 Ship Stats proposals
 

One of the stats proposed would be without suicide-stealing, I don't see how it's derailing the thread (though I highly doubt it is going to be used).

Re: R65 Ship Stats proposals
 

No stats currently offered is no loss stealing.

Re: R65 Ship Stats proposals
 

"What I do propose is that stealers don't die"
--First post, this thread.


Paisley, are you still advocating no-loss stealing?

Re: R65 Ship Stats proposals
 

He has pulled his stats set, so i guess he isnt advocating it anymore.
Im sure that he feel that it was sabotage by people being stupid in xmas more so than "no-loss" being a problem in itself "in a perfect world".

Re: R65 Ship Stats proposals
 

I agree. Other than closures for abuse and the standard Black Flag bots I haven't seen pro-active MH in a long long time. I think changes in stealing as proposed will just be too much for the current team.

Re: R65 Ship Stats proposals
 

So beta stats have really low Zik effs. Are we really going to do a no-loss (or reduced-loss, same difference) stealing Zik round?

Re: R65 Ship Stats proposals
 

I believe the stats in main game are final?

I certainly hope not but I was led to believe that they are.


Edit: i just logged into beta and saw they are the same stats :sigh:

Re: R65 Ship Stats proposals
 

In game are final.

Re: R65 Ship Stats proposals
 

Wow, these stats are... interesting? :confused:

Re: R65 Ship Stats proposals
 

Let the Great Farming of 2016 commence!

Re: R65 Ship Stats proposals
 

zik stealers dying as normal and this set isn't being used...

don't understand the high inits on some of the ships on the ingame set though :confused:

Re: R65 Ship Stats proposals
 

Its because alot of ships target multiple meta classes and in order to avoid same init fire the init had to get pretty high.

Re: R65 Ship Stats proposals
 

Well, I didn't think i'd ever find myself saying this, but I'd rather have BB's stats than these.

Re: R65 Ship Stats proposals
 

Lets see how they play out before making judgements. Its obvious that majority of the playerbase dont like them so far, but its hard to judge if they will be suksessfull or not now.
Jintao choose to make a last second set imho, and people wernt able to influence them sifficantly enough maybe

Re: R65 Ship Stats proposals
 

I think these stats are specially awful. I am glad I am scanning.

Re: R65 Ship Stats proposals
 

They arent all that bad. Roach seems a bit op

Re: R65 Ship Stats proposals
 

Only stat tards think these are bad. They have potential and a good mix of strats. Race distribution signifies this.

There's a reason why Tia's stats that got picked were the worst ive played since returning

Re: R65 Ship Stats proposals
 

Roach needs to be imo. As cats only race with bs pods. Not like people wont land the def.

Re: R65 Ship Stats proposals
 

Wich ones?
These stats are choosen and built by penguins, and maybe disliked by majority of the community, but in the end how they play out is what matters, and its too early to make a judgement on that

Re: R65 Ship Stats proposals
 

Hey look, it's Butcher speaking for 'the majority of the community'. Again.

Re: R65 Ship Stats proposals
 

They were? Jintao built them... he isn't p3nguins and wasn't p3nguins when he built them.

Re: R65 Ship Stats proposals
 

No. We built them. Butcher knows all. Again

Re: R65 Ship Stats proposals
 

The ones where you couldnt land for love nor money. And where most full tags did the same strat in the last ten rounds. I will let you work it out jedi master.

Re: R65 Ship Stats proposals
 

ive only seen a handfull saying they like these stats, unless you care to explain why this is not the case?

Re: R65 Ship Stats proposals
 

Might be because only a handful bothers talking to you.

Re: R65 Ship Stats proposals
 

Thank god that im able to ears drop :salute:

Re: R65 Ship Stats proposals
 

That's not how this works. You say the majority of the community dislike these stats. The burden of proof is on you. Lacking that proof, I don't believe you know that for sure. I believe you say that to give weight to your posts without having to bother to provide evidence or an argument to back up your claim. This is not a popularity contest. If you think the stats are bad, tell us why. Lacking that, your comments are worthless.

Re: R65 Ship Stats proposals
 

Last round races were also mixed. Were stats good then?