[Discuss] XP for successfull defense
 

I dont know if anyone has mentioned it before, but why isnt there any XP given for successful defense? I mean granted you get a little salvage for the battle, but it usually doesnt make up for the losses you take. If your planet gains Experience Points for offense combat, why not for defending an alliance m8 as well? it could be a ratio, proportional to the value of the ships destroyed.

Re: XP for successfull defense
 

Odd, I was just thinking about this, but hadn't figured out a method of giving the XP to the defenders.

My thought was taking the amount of roids that might have been taken (the max the attacker could have gotten) and then giving XP for each roid less then that taken. The actual XP per roid would be derived by a similiar formula as getting XP for attacking, and the XP would be divided among the defending fleet via Value? Although sending more defending ships (unnecessary defending ships) would gain more then your fair share of XP, although it would mean you were unable to defend other people.

Melesse

Re: XP for successfull defense
 

anything that promotes defending would be a good thing.

But as some have mentioned it irc, its hard to code it for the cath, as it could be abused.

Re: XP for successfull defense
 

I am not a favour of this im afraid.

If you give XP for defence, it makes more people defend, thus less battles, and less people attacking.
Also, atm if an attacker has a nasty landing, but can gain thru xp, he may take a chance and land, but with gains to be had for the defender, less attackers will take those risks, again making less landings.

We need more battles, not less.

Re: XP for successfull defense
 

imo it wouldnt make less attacks, I still attack everynight, even when Im defending. It would just mean you finally have something to gain when you send those defense fleets to alliance m8s. Maybe it would actually encourage some of the less active members to defense if they have something to gain by it.

Also the nasty landing attacker will still land no matter if the defenders are getting XP or not. He wants to get his own XP and roids and not waste his night with his fleet out for nothing. Like I said it would have to be proportional to either the value of the ships lost, or proportional to the number of roids lost/max possible lost roids, like they do for attacks.


tbh there really arent many 'battles' now. I either land with the target running his fleet, or if Im defending I have to pull after the attacker sees defense on jgp and recalls. Ive seen little actual combat.

Re: XP for successfull defense
 

Re: XP for successfull defense
 

thanks for the link.

Re: XP for successfull defense
 

So balance it by making it much less XP. You can defend with a fleet in gal twice for each attack you send out (Approx) so make it at least half the XP per roid, maybe like a 1/4.

But to be honest, I've attacked maybe ten times this round. However, my fleets are constantly out defending, and I'm the only one in my gal who defends much. Therefore, I only have 800k in experience, whereas most people as active as me have several million. Even if the exp in defending was minuscule, I'd be top 100 ;)

I think the problem is in how you're looking at XP. Some people are looking at it as a reward, some as a bribe, etc, but what it really is is experience. As you play the game, you get more experienced, and planning a successful attack of a person larger then you should, and does reward you with a higher score. I believe the same should be true of defending. A clever defense that stops an enemy from seizing roids, and minimizes your own casualties should be rewarded with XP.

I think if XP were given for defending, it would definitely have to take into account the number of roids that were saved. It should take into account the difference between the defending planet and the attacking planet

Alright, try this on for size. Each roid less then the amount of roids the attacking fleet would have taken unopposed is worth Y amount of XP. Each defending fleet will get a portion of that XP, related the percentage of their defensive fleet against the total defending fleet value. That value would be further modified per defending planet by X, X being the ratio of attacking fleet value to defensive value, and being further modified by the quantity of the defensive fleet surviving/un-EMPed. The modifier X would be capped at 0.5 and 2.

For example purposes, a gentleman is attacked by a gentlewoman, who is going to steal 250 of his roids. He successfully, with the assistance of four of his friends, defends 160 of those roids. Three of them contributed 200k value worth of fleet in defense, and two . Each roid is work 1 XP, so there's a total of 160 XP to be divided amongst the four. It's divided with 40 XP to each of the first three, and 20 XP to each of the last two. If the attacking fleet was 300k in value, the first three defenders would get 1.5 x 40XP, and the last two would get 2 x 20XP. This would then be multiplied by the percentage of the fleet that was left alive or un-EMPed at the end of the battle (ie 75% x 1.5 x 40XP = 45 XP. )

However, after typing all that, I realize it's fairly complicated and cumbersome. It wouldn't be too difficult individually, but I can imagine it would be hard on the database, especially later in the round. I'd hate for all this typing to goto waste, though, so I'll leave it up in case it inspires someone else.

Summary for those with short attention spans - Defensive XP is related to attacking fleet size, defending fleets sizes, and how much of your fleet survives/remains un-EMPed.

Melesse

Re: XP for successfull defense
 

The reward for a succesful def is that you saved your mate and that your ally doesn't lose roids. If the attacker landed you can have resources which will translate into extra value, ending in a bit extra score... why do you want something more ?

Re: XP for successfull defense
 

defence for roids saved is easy to abuse. if a planet has 4k roids and 2 friends, he gets a friend to send say enough daggers to cap and then a ton of useless random ships, but nothing which hits co. then he gets the second friend to def with just enough beetles to stop the dags, both the planet and the defender get xp like they stopped the cap of 500 roids each?

Re: XP for successfull defense
 

Well, you can abuse attacking that way too, so unless you want to remove exp from attacking....

I still don't see any reason whatsoever not to include xp for defending, except to continue to encourage people to attack more, and ignore defense. You can still encourage that, while providing an alternative playstyle for defensive players, either by reducing salvage and including xp, or making xp very small for defending. Additionally, you could create research trees that include a choice between attacking or defending, as to which you gain the most xp with. And whichever one you don't choose you get a 50% penalty on the XP you would have gotten. I would happily give up most of my attacking xp for some defensive xp.

And Makhil, that's a terrible reward. Who cares about roids, it's value that's important. In fact, other then Zik, I'm not sure any race should really be defending it's roids unless the attacker sent structure killers. It's way easier just to send two fleets out attacking, and one with the rest of your fleet and let them take the roids and go harvest some more XP. I'm surprised so many people defend.

Melesse

Re: XP for successfull defense
 

this thread is related:
http://pirate.planetarion.com/showthread.php?t=184878

Re: XP for successfull defense
 

Well, the more people attack instead of organising defence, the more effective sending defence becomes.

That might sound silly, but think about it. If one of your attacks is getting defended against whilst the other two will not, you are highly likely to recall that fleet ("why should i take losses when i could get the roids for free over there?"). thus, its a dynamic equilibrium thing that is limited by the number of available fleets and the restricted targeting of ships, but the idea is still sound - the more attacking fleets there are, the more effective defence becomes.

Re: [Discuss] XP for successfull defense
 

::bump::
Formula something like Race_modifier*Defender_bravery_factor*10*roids_stopped*your_fleet_value/total_defence_fleet_value

where defender_bravery_factor = Min(attacker_planet_value/target_planet_value,2) and roids_stopped = total_damage_done_to_roids/50 - roids_lost_from_target_planet.
Race_modifier is 1 for all races apart from Cath, where it's say 1.25 - this is because they suffer defensively from lack of salvage.
I was going to start a new thread, but decided against it as there's a few out there and this is the most recent. Comments?

Re: [Discuss] XP for successfull defense
 

This seems like a very good plan.

Re: [Discuss] XP for successfull defense
 

why not 'simply' base it on the XP the attacker would have gotten for the saved roids?

For example:

Say i am attacking a planet of my own value, giving me a bravery factor of 10. The target has 1000 roids, which means a max cap of 250 roids. To make the example extra clear i sent enough pods to take 200 roids (so no 25% max cap!). Those 200 roids will get me 2000 XP points. The defence on my target however, stops 75% of my pods from capping, which means i can only take 50 roids instead of 200. The saved roids = 150 which means the defenders get to divide 1500 XP (by your_def_value/total_defvale).

in formula something like:

total_XP_gained = (( attackers_max_cap - attackers_actual_cap ) * attackers_bravery)
your_XP_gained = total_XP_gained * (your_def_value / total_def_value)

attackers_max_cap is not 25% of the roids, but the actual roids they could have taken with their pods (which in most cases would be 25% of the total roids ofcourse).

Re: [Discuss] XP for successfull defense
 

Because my way would a) get the same results for your example, and
b) this means if small planets are hitting big planets (getting 20 as the attacker_bravery, etc) and 90% of the roids that would be lost are stopped, the planet gets HUGE XP. Wheras, with my way, you get more XP for defending yourself from bigger planets, and less XP vs smaller planets. My formula is almost the inverse of yours. (Thanks to Thrud for pointing out how flawed this was on IRC when I first pointed it out ;))

Re: [Discuss] XP for successfull defense
 

hmm, you are right. Remind me not to post again when i am busy with alot of other things :(

though i suppose, if you invert the attackers_bravery to defenders_bravery ( = 20 - attackers_bravery) you'd solve the problem. You'd end with the same formula as you gave idd, apart from the race modifier. Personally i don't think that is needed, yes cathaar do not get salvage, but on the other hand EMP defence makes the attackers more likely to land aswell which means it kinda solves itself. If there is only EMP def and a chance on roids, attackers normally land, in which case the defender would get XP where the attacker would have recalled on kill defence.

Re: [Discuss] XP for successfull defense
 

How do you judge a sucessful defence?

Totally stopping the attacker? Killing all their fleet? Killing 20% of their fleet?

Several times I've see defences that can't stop roids being lost, so instead people sent all their stealers and took most of the attackers fleet, resulting in an overall net gain in score. Some would call that a successful defence.

What happens if the attacker doesn't land? You've sent total overkill (to prevent any roids being taken) - when some of your ships would have been useful in an alliance defence elsewhere? Do you get XP or not?
What about people "farming" defence XP using fake attack and real defence - two alliance players could spend the whole round, sending/recalling their spare fleets at each other. And how fair is it for no awarding defence XP for a fake attack - you (the defender) thought the attack was real and was willing to help a mate out.
Do all defenders get the same XP? How about an alliance early in the round that is willing to take a hit on one planet and get all his alliance to defend with one (incorrect targetting) ship?

I agree that there should be XP for defence.

Re: [Discuss] XP for successfull defense
 

If you read the example formula's posted by Appocomaster and myself, succesfull defence would be defence where a battle took place. Just like you only get XP for attacking when you actually land. Defence XP should be used the same as Attack XP, but then the inverse of it. Instead of getting XP for the roids taken, you get XP for the roids you prevent from being taken, so the more roids you 'protect' the more you XP you get.

Faking is faking, just like a fake attack won't get the attacker anything apart from 'wasted time', the same goes for the defence, you prevented nothing (as the roids wouldn't have been lost anyway). And like in the last examples, XP is based on your particiation in the battle compared to other defence. The one defending with the most value in ships, will get the most of the XP there is to devide (based on the XP the attackers would have gained & defenders bravery) amongst the defence.

It would indeed be 'mean' to Ziks as they steal after roids have been lost, but then again, they would (in theory) gain a nice fleet instead of getting XP, eventhough that is a increase in value (and thus score) you get, not XP.

Re: [Discuss] XP for successfull defense
 

I'm with Forest on this one. The more attacking the better. Don't encourage def whores, get them out attacking more!

Re: [Discuss] XP for successfull defense
 

the gain from defence is getting defence back from ur alliance to keep ur growth up. the gain from attacking is getting a better score and roids to make u able to grow faster. imo xp for deffing is not whats needed.

Re: [Discuss] XP for successfull defense
 

i m for it, it promote unity in an alliance.. you want your fellow players in your team to help you out when you got incoming, no? so if you defend and there is a battle, you should be award something to standing up the the ennemy fleet (if there s no battle or if the ennemy fleet recall there s no battle so no xp gain) otherwise let just remove defense althogether.. so everyone will have to attack! that is just as ridiculous.. but i hope ppls understand there s as much value in defending what you have, as to taking roids for someone else.. (though i still call players yellow back to attack a player that is half or less their value!)

Re: [Discuss] XP for successfull defense
 

don't think this can ever be implemented properly.. it's way too easy to abuse.

For example just send loads of small players on a top cathaar... add a little defence and he grows by the millions? heh seems a bit silly.

Re: [Discuss] XP for successfull defense
 

well, that might solve the problem of big planets claiming it s "so hard to grow once you become so high ranked" lol instead of bashing the weak they defend themselves! lol..