not-quite-JBG's r51 stats
 

Hello folks.

Seems my awesome performance last round has inspired the Powers That Be to allow me to make r51's stats as well.

As it's long overdue, we'll be reusing a set of stats! (Woo!)

No. I will not be asking your opinions on what stats to reuse. It'll be the round 30 ones.

Some more useful links, for those of us who don't really remember: r30 stats thread. Xan Fi whine. Who we were. I was also told the speedgame ran the r30 stats for quite a while.

I will be making some (but not many) changes. Here's a list of changes I will most certainly not make. I will probably ignore your post if did not read this bit:

• Changing pods or roiding classes
• Removing pods or roiding classes
• Adding pods or roiding classes
• Removing SKs
• Adding 0 loss defense

Here's a list of things I will probably not change unless you have some solid multi-paragraph reasoning to back it up:

• Inits
• Types
• Names

For completeness sake, here's a list of changes that I might make regardless of what you have to say:

• Behemoth will become a cargo ship because **** Fr/De SKs.
• Emp rebalance.
• Steal boost.

You may be wondering what kind of suggestions I will take under consideration. Tweaks. Seriously. The smaller the tweak you're suggesting, the more likely I am to consider it. When you post, please state what race you normally go and what race you'd consider going with these stats and, if at all possible, why.

I would like the feedback in this thread, please, not in an IRC PM, because that makes it easier for everyone to see where we're going with this.

P.S. For the record, I will not be doing much of anything until next week.

Re: not-quite-JBG's r51 stats
 

"I don't think xan is that underpowered this round although going for an fi/co attack fleet just doesn't work in my opinion. If I could change one thing in the set of stats this round it'd be removing the t3 on the broadsword. If I could change one more it'd probably be reducing the efficiency of the scorpion. "

/JBG

Re: not-quite-JBG's r51 stats
 

Steal in general is weaker now than it was in R30 so I think zik might need a small buff from these stats. I seem to recall the pillager being pretty awesome, so that's one stealship which probably doesn't need much of an improvement.

Re: not-quite-JBG's r51 stats
 

I'd personally like it if you can't steal into classes you can't prod. This only involves the corsair and the marauder (targetting DE). I however don't see a true solution for either. I would probably move the DE targetting from the marauder to the rogue, but i see this could be too powerful at init 5, and it would render the clipper completely useless.

Re: not-quite-JBG's r51 stats
 

Don't hardly remember playing, but apparently I did...went Xan as usual.

Must have gone BS/FR as it looks like most Asc went Etd/Zik. I usually like (crashing) Fi/Co fleets but I think the Fr/Bs stats were decent.

Re: not-quite-JBG's r51 stats
 

2 questions:

1) How many people 'actively' played PA in rd30?

2) Was it the stat set or the alliance setups/politics that made that round so great?


Im not some stat guru like JBG but just perusing through them quickly i can see that with each race its very easy to make yourself 'immune' to incs with a 3 ship build, something that from recent stat discussions i thought was decided was a bad thing for the game. I would therefore worry that with the current political repetiveness/predictablity and big MT stats that the round would in most probability be a massive flop and tarnish the rep of this 'holy grail' set of stats from the 'best round ever'.

Re: not-quite-JBG's r51 stats
 

1) A lot. At the time it was thought to be the last round of PA, so a lot of people came out of hiding. See the "Who we were" thread that I linked in the OP. Do a Ctrl+F for "last round". 1628 planets at round end, of which 830 were in alliances with more than 40 players in them.
2) The politics. Ascendancy vs. Omen.

These stats were made by JBG, actually (hence the thread title).

Truth be told, I haven't really looked at them much yet either. The reasons I chose these were:

• I went through the "Good old stats" thread that was posted a while ago (and which was totally spammed to shit) and the only serious suggestion made there was r30.
• Fairly decent race ratios:
  
  Code:

  ---

  top | ter% | cat% | xan% | zik% | etd%
----+------+------+------+------+-----
200 | 19.5 | 17.5 | 14.5 | 16.5 | 32.0
100 | 11.0 | 23.0 | 14.0 | 20.0 | 32.0
 50 | 12.0 | 22.0 | 10.0 | 18.0 | 38.0

  ---

  The Cat/Etd heaviness is why I'm rebalancing EMP. IsildurX is right too, so I'll probably boost Zik somewhat. I think I'll just do a simple across the board A/C and D/C eff improvement. I'll also take a close look at anything JBG said at the time.
• The general "hey cool, these look weird!" feel.

Re: not-quite-JBG's r51 stats
 

Yes, this is bad for the game, but no, you can't become "immune" from just building three ships with this set of stats. The possible exemptions might be Ter FR and Xan FR, but those are the worst attackfleets without a doubt.

Re: not-quite-JBG's r51 stats
 

Sorry i think maybe you misconstrued what i meant by 'immune'. I meant that each race has a viable 3 ship build to proivde some coverage against all classes. I didnt mean it would mean nobody could hit you i just meant you target everything competitively. I would say this is probably far easier to acheive in nowdays PA as 95% of those ppl actively playing now know the importance of value and wont willingly crash it for roids.

From looking at the stats i can see atleast 1 3 ship build per races and some races have 2 or even 3!! This would make for a massively defensive and boring round imo, where the only concern is retards crashing on you (beware ND!! :D )


I can also see why ETD dominated the round with these stats, kind of makes me see the potential of ETD with the multiple ability thing (and more so see the need of removing them from the game tbh)

Re: not-quite-JBG's r51 stats
 

I know i could find the numbers answer somewhere but i also knew you would know exactly where to look and that seemed the quicker option :P

I genuinely am not fussed what set of stats get used for a round as i still feel they hold very little sway on a round anyway, yes they can help stagnation if overly defensive but in general it is the alliances picking strats that help that cause the most.

I just wanted to play devils advocate, if thats the correct term, to the 'round 30' fan club by making the arguement that the players and politics were the deciding factor in the greatness of that round and not the stat set that was used. I worry that this set is too defensive by nature and would need a proper overhaul to take it away from that, which mz has stated is not his intention (and i dont think it should be), lets just not all get a 'semi' on at the prospect of rd 51 ok? we still have the same retards running the alliances in play, making the same fails every round.

Re: not-quite-JBG's r51 stats
 

"semi"?

I'll have you know I'm fully erect.



And throbbing.

Re: not-quite-JBG's r51 stats
 

I dont think you need to nerph the EMP, maybe you could just give the terran ships better EMP resitance, and make the stealing way more effective vs cath.
I think this rounds stats were good in that way every race had a big flaw.
i will also talk about how i think the stats should be, xan with tinfoil armored ships with effective guns, ter being flying fortresses, cath being good to roid with but vurneable when the emp is outflaked, zik with an opportuinity to have some kick ass fleets if they get a lucky steal, and ETD having everything mixed into one race.

Re: not-quite-JBG's r51 stats
 

Hello mz, I hope you are well my friend. There are a few things to bear in mind that may be different this round and should be considered. Racial stats, salvage formula, government differences could have a significant difference. I may even come on irc to discuss the whole situation if I'm totally bored over the next while!

Re: not-quite-JBG's r51 stats
 

Hi JBG, that would be nice, though I should probably look at them before that happens. Thanks!

Re: not-quite-JBG's r51 stats
 

Anyone got the numbers for how much salvage and governments have changed since r30?

Re: not-quite-JBG's r51 stats
 

From what I can tell it was 30%/40% from killed attacking and defending ships, respectively, in r30. Last round those values were at 20%/40%.

This is excluding the cap on value-steals (in which the gain is capped at 20%-2% of original fleet, based on score relative to the rest of the uni).

[edited for clarity]

Re: not-quite-JBG's r51 stats
 

And also what Isil hinted at earlier: that Zik steal salvage is now shared among all defenders.

As for governments: see here. Main change: Feud.

Other things that have changed since then:

• Exiling is harder.
• Less idlers to farm ships at. (I never liked this, but that doesn't make it any less important)
• The round is much shorter, 1800 -> 1177 ticks.

Re: not-quite-JBG's r51 stats
 

Overall I say that the changes from r30 until now weakens ziks in particular and helps cath. Etd also hurt from stealing being worse, but the pillager was pretty boss to begin with afaik.

No doubt that ziks will need their efficiencies improved. Dibs on not figuring out how much :p

Re: not-quite-JBG's r51 stats
 

Hmm. If Zik needs an across the board boost, might it not be better to do that in the race stats?

Re: not-quite-JBG's r51 stats
 

Dunno if it'd be better, but it would certainly be easier for you! ;)

Re: not-quite-JBG's r51 stats
 

It's around 1580 ticks, not 1800 :)

Re: not-quite-JBG's r51 stats
 

PAWiki says January 23 - April 4. That's 71 days, 71 * 24 ticks = 1704. Incorrect?

Re: not-quite-JBG's r51 stats
 

I'm so confused.
there was downtime in round 30, at least a 2 days. However, when I looked for last tick in round 30, it's tick 1584. That's 5 days of downtime. maybe we didn't announce them all? Anyway, the round is a little shorter than it looks; sorry for quibbling.

Re: not-quite-JBG's r51 stats
 

The 'who we were'-thread also mentions a rollback - perhaps that's another day's worth of ticks lost.

Re: not-quite-JBG's r51 stats
 

rounds back then were 10 weeks, ergo 1680 ticks, 1584 tick would account for 4 days of downtime :)

Re: not-quite-JBG's r51 stats
 

if I remember right because rd 30 was due to be the last round the length was extended from the normal 7 weeks to 10 weeks

Re: not-quite-JBG's r51 stats
 

No they weren't, it was extended :cool:

Re: not-quite-JBG's r51 stats
 

Mz: which stats are most relevant atm?

The beta stats (which are fully st) or the ones from the original post displaying the round 30 stats?

Im not sure which i should be looking at to make comments

Re: not-quite-JBG's r51 stats
 

His link;
originally we were going with r42 but r30 is now the way, the truth and the light.

Re: not-quite-JBG's r51 stats
 

R51 stats are now up on the beta. Changes made so far:

Re: not-quite-JBG's r51 stats
 

Reason for that?

Re: not-quite-JBG's r51 stats
 

Boost for Xan Fi.
Don't like Fr/De SKs.
4 pods.

Pretty straightforward.

Re: not-quite-JBG's r51 stats
 

You removed Etd SK because it has 4 pods? just to clarify...

Re: not-quite-JBG's r51 stats
 

only 1 FI attack fleet for 4 FR attack fleet... FI don't need more help.
Xan are still unscannable with unit scan while all the other races will be scannable... Xan don't need boost.

The real issue with these stats will be the Cath, they will be overpowered or underpowered. Ter Emp vs cath seems poor, Cath emp + steal capacity on FR/DE seems just too much.

Re: not-quite-JBG's r51 stats
 

Xan Fi was fairly weak in r30, largely due to the Harpy, so yes, it does. You're also assuming that the unblockable unit scan will indeed be introduced for r51, which (while I don't have any inside information) is not something I'd bet money on.

Kaiba: yes. I figure not every race needs an SK. Removed Ter's because it was De. Removed Etd's because it has plenty of non-combat ships already. Not really going to have a huge impact, anyway.

Re: not-quite-JBG's r51 stats
 

Honestly, these stats look pretty good. I'm trying my best to fight the notion that if I don't make lots of changes, I'm not doing my job.

Things I'm considering doing:

• 5% cost reduction for Zik steal ships, but not their kill shipe, nor Etd's steal ships.
• Slight boost in Xan Fi emp res.
• Scarab D/C down 5%.
• Scorpion D/C down 5%.
• Maybe Buccaneer to type Normal.

P.S. I may or may not have recently discovered how to make lists in BBcode.

Re: not-quite-JBG's r51 stats
 

What init would you give Bucc? because it would have to be comparable to Broadsword and Shadow. Its better to leave bucc as steal and give it a high ac/dc so it can compete with Shadow and broadswords.

Re: not-quite-JBG's r51 stats
 

Plenty of info on BBCode here.

Re: not-quite-JBG's r51 stats
 

Am I the only one that thinks Zik doesn't need a buff at all? :confused:

The only thing they might need is a better way to roid, but defensively they're very strong already.

Re: not-quite-JBG's r51 stats
 

Well, Zik was probably the second strongest race back in r30 (after Etd), but by no means overpowered. Recent changes (listed earlier in this thread) have made them worse though, so a little boost seems reasonable.

I can be convinced otherwise though.

Re: not-quite-JBG's r51 stats
 

Yeah, roiding as zik probably won't be too easy. Going to have to rely on faking I reckon.

Re: not-quite-JBG's r51 stats
 

Aah rd30!! 6:1 love!! :)))

Terrans who frig fort were pretty hard to hit later on iirc....not sure if zik would need much of a boost at all considering they were pretty strong anyway (even with the change in salvage)....then again haven't really looked just going off memory...

Re: not-quite-JBG's r51 stats
 

Etd looks the most badass to me, FR/DE combo really isnt fun to attack. Kinda limited in attack, but if you got some bs too you got 4 podclasses to fake :p

Re: not-quite-JBG's r51 stats
 

seriously tho... this needs to be asked... on a normal attack (not 8 man lolwave) what can you actually attack as any race after tick 600 without taking value loss or being 1 fleet covered.....

Re: not-quite-JBG's r51 stats
 

Didn't play r30, so no idea how the stat set played out but looking at what you've currently got down my first impressions are something like...

Fi/Co I can see having a tough time in this as there is a fair bit of effective in gal ships to us as def.

Ter:- Change war frigates name to Kobold or something more fitting.

Cat:- Not sold on the locust being a steal ship, norm would do me.
That mantis having a lower ini than the peacekeeper. See Xan -v

Xan:- The ini for them is getting to me a bit. On the bomber and peacekeeper I feel should be a little lower the PK in particular is out performed by the Mantis and Broadsword...

...The BrS' stolen xan so shouldn't Xan have matching if not a better native variant?

Also a lot of clashing ini from in gal def will eventually mean fi's are going to have a bit of a nightmare at some point (I know xan can fake but still).

Zik:- Should do ok once they get rolling not as many attack options from the start but yeah stealing ^^

Etd:- Are looking berry stronk. I can see why the uni was full of them. Their BS' look like they'll dominate, they've got plenty of options to fake and look like the could get pretty tough to crack.

For the record I mainly play Etd or Zik (I've been xan once).

So may go Ter or Cat this round coming, leaning more to cat atm due to (Depends on what Ally/BP want to do I guess). But going of stats I'd go Etd again.

Re: not-quite-JBG's r51 stats
 

Well, later in the round soloing won't be too easy obviously(as is usually the case), as every fleet has ally def that can stop it. Every fleet has targets it can hit all thorugh the round though, and teamups for co, de, cr and (somewhat) bs is strong vs all forms of def tbh. Also, every race having more podclasses means faking will be easier!

Re: not-quite-JBG's r51 stats
 

I find that doesnt play out in the calcs tho... you need some pretty big teams (4+) to start landing on fr and bs planets after tick 600 .. following a value progrssion, you just end up incurring losses to land... and defence becomes a 1 fleet cover job which is pretty lame... i can see it being an init race for everyone after tick 600

Re: not-quite-JBG's r51 stats
 

Whaat?

So you think terrans will build both BS and FR?

Re: not-quite-JBG's r51 stats
 

I think when the primary fleet stops landing then ppl will have to build a second fleet and that means that people will be harder to land on..

its gonna be a shit round for attacking... there is little to no gaps in any race, every race takes a chunk of any attack fleet coming in (except emp ofc). People play the value game now, only losers crash. It a lot more profitable to build a better base for defence and just init roids

Re: not-quite-JBG's r51 stats
 

I actually agree with Kiaba and you all know how much I hate that. This round will be a super defensive round and will have alot more init and less landing except in lolwaves or gangbang style of politics.