R67 bb set discussion
 

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http://beta.planetarion.com/manual.p...&rn=6511383361

Re: R67 bb set discussion
 

Xan with 3 pods is instantly OP. The set needs overhauling

Re: R67 bb set discussion
 

Would adding another xan DE with T1 CR and removing T2 from Broadsword be a too big or good enough nerph?

Re: R67 bb set discussion
 

I think you missed his point... somehow...

Re: R67 bb set discussion
 

His point being that xan is too strong. Further nerphing their value spread on more ships means less strong.

Re: R67 bb set discussion
 

Or switch either FR or DE to a CR or BS fleet perhaps?

Re: R67 bb set discussion
 

Yeah thats another idea, but that would again make xan ship ratio change. And it would give xan the ability to fake meta classes(?). What targets fr/de dont target capital hulls, so it would make em even better

Re: R67 bb set discussion
 

Yeah just throwing that 'idea' out there. Haven't gone over your set fully, just peeking at it when I have a minute.

Re: R67 bb set discussion
 

Yeah because what the game lacks is more faking options for Xan.

That's the point we are all making. You can't run 3 pods for Xan, regardless of what you do to its ships, it makes its a nightmare to DC and an instant fleet suck

Re: R67 bb set discussion
 

Tiamata will come and say xan is unplayable how the stats is atm.
There actualy is not that much option faking FR as DE

Re: R67 bb set discussion
 

His point was that Xan with 3 pods will never be balanced, no matter the conditions.

Re: R67 bb set discussion
 

If he said that i will quote him on it

Re: R67 bb set discussion
 

Correct.

Yes, but not enough.

I won't go so far as to say there are no conditions under which 3 pod Xan vs. 2 pod other race can be balanced, but you're making it very hard for yourself, and everyone else. If you want to create 12 roiding fleets on 5 races (which is something I generally like), give the 2 third pods to other races. My preference would be Ter and Cat. Xan gets too strong, Zik and Etd can steal pods.

Re: R67 bb set discussion
 

But there is option which makes it OP. As DC any ETA 8 Xan who has 3 fleets on his A scan needs to be covered in 3 different ways. That is not viable in any stat set. All that happens is a repeat of this round, 40+% Xans. There is literally no reason to pick any other race.

3 pods is the worst idea every to grace PA even in its heyday, now it's just retarded.

PS. It's Tiamats, not Tiamata

Re: R67 bb set discussion
 

Im gonna challenge you to make those calcs if this set goes through the first phase.

Where is it viable to fake DE as FR?

Xan will have both vsh/pulsars - they cant be faked
Cat/etd will have either viper/tulas - smuggler/avenger/marauder they cant be faked
Terran/zik bs cant be faken without major losses

Im sure if you ask paisley and tia thet will say this makes xan weak.

Re: R67 bb set discussion
 

I can't be bothered to keep explaining to you when you aren't even prepared to listen to the reason why. Enjoy making your stats, it will be a sad day if this set is picked over Patrick's thoigh

Re: R67 bb set discussion
 

You dont need to explain your view to me, as we obviously have diffrent views on it.
The rest might be interested to listen to it though, and make up their own opinions on it.

R62 had 3 pod xan.
And R51(the inspiration of my set) had 3 pod xan.
Why wernt xan overly growded in the top100 those rounds?

Re: R67 bb set discussion
 

I wish people would stop looking to that set for inspiration.

Every race had 3 pods those rounds, and in r51, Etd even had 4.

Don't hide behind the opinions of other people. If you think it's weak, say so. Tia is a big boy, he can give his own opinion, he doesn't need you to do it for him.

Re: R67 bb set discussion
 

I looked at it for all of two seconds and thought...no.

You've already started going against race characteristics and backstory which I just hate. Xan is known for having quick fire ships that die, not for having the same init as all other normal firing ships from different races.

I can only assume you've done this to counteract the problems you create for yourself with the Xan 3 pod setup that others have previously mentioned, so I won't give them any more time.

This is not a recipe for success.

Re: R67 bb set discussion
 

Something I completely agree with when it comes to stats making.

Re: R67 bb set discussion
 

If i thought it was unbalancedly weak i would work on it, how ever i dont belive this.
If a statsmaker is not gonna weighten opinions of others up against each other he aint realy doing his job.
If everyone agrees something is overall strong, or everyone is thinking all looks fine it usualy some wrong.

Re: R67 bb set discussion
 

Race catheristics that says xan should have ships that prefires dosnt work. Sorry to burst your bubble.

Re: R67 bb set discussion
 

That is fact. You cannot argue with fact.

"The Xandathrii are an advanced insect race. The Xandathrii have lots of small, cheap ships which are equipped with cloaking technology which operates whilst they are in transit and as such certain scans do not work against them. They fire quickly with high damage, but to compensate for this their armour is the worst of all races."

Common characteristics are quick attack ships with some slow init def ships compared to other races to compensate. You have decided to mask their attack ships with ships of the same init from other races to weaken them rather than changing the flawed foundations you started with. This will lead to more problems in later stages, for when you correct one problem, another will make itself known to you.

Re: R67 bb set discussion
 

Why doesn't it work? When you say two posts prior

And then shoot down someones opinion without explaining why then you are already failing. If you want these to work you are going to have to back up your reasoning.

Re: R67 bb set discussion
 

If xan ships always prefire, xan will be the best race almost everytime.

Re: R67 bb set discussion
 

Not opinions. Arguments. Saying "Tia thinks X is too good" or "Paisley thinks Y is too weak" is meaningless and worse than meaningless when there's a 'probably' somewhere in there. It's the "because..." that should follow you pay attention to.

Re: R67 bb set discussion
 

The arguments was that xan had to go a 50/50 split between FI and FR/DE. That was Tia and my arguments.

Paisley said that faking FR as DE was pretty meaningless due to many ships target FR/DE as T1/T2.

Re: R67 bb set discussion
 

Only 3 ships target Fr/De at alliance ETA and two of those are stealers, the other is EMP. That means both FR/DE out int what targets them or suffer no loss.

So already alliance defence isn't effective, which means we are down to self defence or galaxy defence which brings another 3 ships into play. 2 are huggers so can be discounted and the War Cruiser gets outinted by FR so it can't be risked really.

Everything else only targets one or the other meaning you need twice the defence to cover anything.

Hence Xan is OP

Re: R67 bb set discussion
 

Lets wait for a opportunity to use a PA server so you can show some example calcs where you would land a fake on any of the stealer anti FR/DE. Im sure you would find it costly landing on etd co/cr atleast.

Re: R67 bb set discussion
 

So you have made it so FR/DE can't land so then what is the point in having both as a roofing class? You have only given Terran 2 roiding classes so why bother having the 3rd one for Xan if it's redundant. Every class that has pods should be viable and if you make Xan FR and Xan DE viable then it's too OP. If you make it so one of them is not viable then what is the point in having it at all?

Re: R67 bb set discussion
 

Not being able to fake attack with FR/DE != FR or DE being useless
Having 3 pod classes != always being better than having 2

If a allie wants to go xan/cat DE they wont put that much value into FR.
If a allie wants to go xan/ter/zik FR they wont put that much value into DE.

I wonder why you are even arguing this.

The goal was obviously to allow these race strats without making "xan OP", and if i achieved or did not achieve this please explain why and bring in some examples.

Re: R67 bb set discussion
 

So finaly i got access to the beta. Now people are able to make calcs to support their claims. be my guest

Re: R67 bb set discussion
 

Not looked yet (or rather not looked again yet) but do you have any update on the sets there are? What is the process from here?

p.s. for anyone who does not remember the link to beta stats http://beta.planetarion.com/manual.pl?page=stats

Re: R67 bb set discussion
 

Since the last time i told u to review em? I think you did a write up on your thoughts on it, but ive lost the link for it.

Re: R67 bb set discussion
 

Fleet matchups:

Ter FR can not roid other terrans with hull3 solo. http://beta.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=n6ls5hpzmd37r2a

Ter FR beat cat CR, struggle cat CO EMP. http://beta.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=x0vifjnhwr5ehn5
Cat DE will more or less be the same calcs.

Ter FR can not roid xan pulsar(only anti FR) same init, red calcs.

Ter FR struggle to roid zik FR. http://beta.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=aflto7icnssmasw
Ter FR can not roid zik BS. http://beta.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=89j7dd9s0xxv3bt

Ter FR struggle roid etd CO. http://beta.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=1v30av3nm4sjpvg
Ter FR can not roid etd CR. http://beta.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=gk1tpv87gzc2wgr
Ter FR cannot to beat etd BS EMP. http://beta.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=kq12tukonvom0iz

Ter FR can solo:

Cat CO/DE/CR

Ter FR struggle:

Zik FR
Etd CO
Cat CO

Ter FR cannot solo:

Ter
Xan
Zik BS
Etd CR/BS

Ter BS struggle vs Ter FR http://beta.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=4ilzocr85i8tl54
Ter BS can roid Ter BS

Ter BS can roid Cat CO and Cat DE http://beta.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=foz223tmiy26tjz
Ter BS can roid Cat CR http://beta.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=ykc3x84zd3huufl

Ter BS struggle vs Xan http://beta.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=na0ghf2aw9pedtu

Ter BS can roid Zik FR/BS http://beta.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=ivoxyze4g0cjtot


Ter BS can roid Etd CO depending on build http://beta.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=rfuwj7o5qq09ur4
Ter BS cannot roid Etd CR http://beta.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=tiissdcmniqe3oy
Ter BS cannot roid Etd BS(buildinging lancers)

----------------

Ter BS can solo:

Cat CO/DE/CR
Etd CO
Ter BS
Xan DE
Zik FR/BS

Ter BS struggle:

Ter FR
Xan FI/FR


Ter BS cannot solo:

Etd CR
Etd BS

Re: R67 bb set discussion
 

Fleet matchups:

Xan FI struggle vs Ter FR http://beta.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=wgbzuk5cuxz2n1h
Xan FI can land vs Ter BS http://beta.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=g36uer0td13bpu7

Xan FI can land Cat CO http://beta.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=l960ds04bwr9ufo
Xan FI can land Cat DE http://beta.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=08mh92grrhs26ae
Xan FI can land Cat CR

Xan FI struggle to land Xan FI
Xan FI cannot land Xan FR
Xan FI cannot land Xan DE

Xan FI struggle to roid zik FR. http://beta.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=cxk7a532nd8eeyl
Xan FI can land Zik BS

Xan FI can land ETD CO
Xan FI can land ETD CR
Xan FI can land ETD BS

----------------

Xan FI can solo:

Cat CO/DE/CR
Etd CO/CR/BS
Zik BS


Xan FI struggle:

Ter FR
Xan FI
Zik FR

Xan FI cannot solo:

Xan FR/DE

-------------------

Fleet matchups:

Xan FR struggle roid other terrans with hull3 solo. http://beta.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=1hk4qvn00njxauo

Xan FR beat cat CR, cannot cat CO EMP. http://beta.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=y2pbcm5ox6xf31l
Cat DE will more or less be the same calcs.

Xan FR struggle to roid Xan planets. http://beta.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=1u85wtunmmo27xq

Xan FR can not roid zik FR.
Xan FR can not roid zik BS. http://beta.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=wgcq3m1lrkn0srd

Xan FR can not roid etd CO. http://beta.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=dgffkwg9vcep601
Xan FR can not roid etd CR. http://beta.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=mbj6b03dlp7ie1r
Xan FR can not to beat etd BS EMP.

Xan FR can solo:

Cat CR

Xan FR struggle:

Xan planets

Xan FR cannot solo:

Ter planets
Zik FR/BS
ETD CO/CR/BS

Re: R67 bb set discussion
 

Oh god, NO. There's just so much wrong in this set that I don't know where to start, so maybe I'll start from the good points:

1) FI is fcked over thrice, CO doesn't have a chance, so we can ALL play hulls 2 with PL def. GG, easy.

2) there's no need for me to do a shitton of calcs before the round to find out the best strat, as there's only one.

Re: R67 bb set discussion
 

Sorry rereading what I wrote and what I meant have little relation to each other my mistake!

What I really meant was is it yours and Pat's sets that we have as options? And will our discussions here have any impact upon the final decision. Clearly they should tune your set as well as possible but without any idea as to the decision making process at the end is there any point in going to the effort?

They certainly seem like sets that are very different in character so an interesting choice at least.

Re: R67 bb set discussion
 

Well i dont think anyone knows how the decision making process works.
The last two rounds the initial sets were dumped and Jintao made his own sets.

Re: R67 bb set discussion
 

It would prolly be interesting for the public for you to write up this strat.
Race distro/ship build/BP strat.

If people agree with you, perhaps you are right, if they dont you are completely wrong and should be banned for trolling ;)

Re: R67 bb set discussion
 

hmmph, you really should see your set with someone elses eyes, or someones eyes that actually plays the game.

Without any calcs whatsoever, but having a decent glimpse on effs, targeting, pods per race etc...

Somewhat even spread on all races, FRDE heavy (like 60% value), FICO is covered, CRBS is covered (especially after you fix Cutter to whatever it should be [steal init, emp "damage]) and because I happen to be in an alliance that actually can use PL def even without forts, BS to cover FRDE (~30% value should do, put the remaining 10% to some random defships or ships to fake with). There's no fort strats with these BPs, but BPs should have 2 different races each. Also, ETD steals to BOTH FRDE, so it won't have problems getting FRDE pods to attack with, especially when XAN has both pods. And pls, do not ask me to do a calc or look at a calc because I know they won't make sense in the real game (yes, talking from experience).

FI as attack : Nope, killed twice by themselves and everyone else too really (except cath who hugs them thrice over).
FI as def: what the hell for, you already cover everything BETTER with every other class.
CO as attack : Nope, get rekt by every planet that has hulls 2, HF launching on selfcovers.
CO as def : again, no need as FRDE does the same, but BETTER.
FRDE in attack : Land pretty much every planet with a 3 man team, except those that can PL def efficiently, WIN.
FRDE in def : GZ, you just covered all but yourself.
CRBS in attack : land until tick 500 with some ease, stop launching attacks after that, unless you're not worried about anything else but landing and do 10 man teamups, even then you'll get eventually rekt with universe that's gone 60+% FRDE.
CRBS in def : covers each other when spammed, covers FRDE when PLed, good job if you can manage that.

Questions?

Re: R67 bb set discussion
 

So you would go for TER/ZIK/CAT, 60% in FR/DE, 20% in CR/BS, 10% in wibble.
Wouldnt that make xan FI stronger as the only in init ship u got is the cath DE + cath CO?

Re: R67 bb set discussion
 

So you can't even read now? Somewhat even spread in ALL RACES.

Re: R67 bb set discussion
 

Xan dont got CR/BS :p it fecks up all your spread

Re: R67 bb set discussion
 

So you still can't read... or understand what you read... maybe that post just was too long for you. Great job on fixing the Cutter init tho.

Re: R67 bb set discussion
 

Well id advice you to read the calcs before claiming that there is gonna be all FR/DE.

Re: R67 bb set discussion
 

Just looking at this one randomly what makes you think that cat cr will have almost a third of their cr value in the mantis? Most cats use very few norm ships unless it covers something where there is no other emp. Take out the mantis and up the other two a bit and xan fr no longer roids cat cr either.

Re: R67 bb set discussion
 

Did I not ask you not to ask me to look at calcs or create calcs that won't reflect the actual game (like any of your calcs posted earlier) ?

To put this in a long sentence, these stats DO NOT support soloing at all (unless you count soloing on tags that do not defend at all, or just suck at it horribly). Which leads us to create the best possible teamups, which then forces us to go FRDE teamups, which then leads to having most value in those ships as they are doubling as the best attack teamup AND the best defence against anything but themselves, which then leads to using the rest of value to the best defships that have a chance against FRDE, which leads to pumping CRBS (mostly BS really) as def ships, which leads to PL def that you so much love (yes, against all classes), which leads to everyone else but maybe 3 tags sucking in def and running away with the round, which creates a goddamn boring round that you love so much. So pls, either reroll these all over (maybe remove a class from each race or something drastic like that) or just give up with this particular set (where the R51 stats you based them on[?] were rather horrible to start with).

Re: R67 bb set discussion
 

While I don't like the three pod thing would not getting rid of some of the second targets not be more effective?

Re: R67 bb set discussion
 

there's just so many ships for each race, especially in hulls 2 and 3 that it "breaks" the set for me, removing ships and/or changing targeting would improve, but would also change the whole "feel" of the set (is it a bad thing?).