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Blue's Stats Discussion
Hi pals, thought i'd create a thread for my upcoming version of stats going on beta so you can keep track of changes made.
Things i am looking for from you guys are obvious flaws in terms of OP races, OP team ups, i haven't had a chance to balance the EMP stuff yet, so i'll make a post when that's done. I am open to making changes, but i am pretty happy with how they are atm. Some changes i am currently considering are: giving zik one or two low init "Norm" ships changing cath structure killer from bs to fr moving around the targeting between ships within the same class |
Re: Blue's Stats Discussion
I dont think I am going to have much to add to a discussion of your stats. They feel to me like you wanted to make a ST set and then decided for the hell of it to go loopy with the few 2nd targets you have. Many of the second targets don't feel intuitive with the worst being the Mantis T1 Bs T2 Fi. Then there is the Peg T1 Bs T2 Co, and The Dealer T1 Co T2 Cr, and the Marauder T1 Fr T2 Bs.
What was the thinking behind such divergent targeting? (edit I am assuming the spreadsheet from the previous thread is currently up to date) |
Re: Blue's Stats Discussion
yes it's up to date, the reasoning behind that are as follows...
if it were T1BS T2CR then they could just spam that as a defense ship and cover incs easier and just spam fi/co or bs/cr as attack fleet, making fr/de strats kind of pointless it allows synergy between the same class of other races without having doubling up on the same target at t1 which each race having a better strength than the other in each class and finally it allows each race a certain weaknesses/strengths at T2 that they wouldn't nessecarily have with same meta class targetting i think it makes for more balanced stats Also it allows fr/de to be more appealing as a tactic |
Re: Blue's Stats Discussion
Will take a look at these and give some feedback asap
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Re: Blue's Stats Discussion
For ease - https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...Z6k/edit#gid=0
Hi pal :) Just going off a cursory glance here - you can probably disregard 1 or 2 things. Your stats look a bit more traditional than BB's set. I'd probably switch either Corsair or Dagger to normal, or at least change their init, because right now they just steal each other and that's a bit weird to me :P In fact, I think I prefer init change and keep steal (in favour of the fighter) as to not make CO too strong. Out of the current zik ships, I'd pick Scavenger and Clipper to go normal instead of steal - mostly because I don't see too much use for stealing their t1's and I think it would help Zik be more playable. I left the attack fleets steal only (apart from Clipper) because I think that's actually fun and has good faking prospects :P The common problem might be that Etd and Xan both have a ship which dominates fi, although I can see how in the Etd case it will help DE teamups land. That said you might consider changing t2 FI of Mantis to Moth instead - although I see that messes up your inits a bit. It seems to me that fighters (ter and etd especially, xan not so much) suffer somewhat from inits, and the ter fi doesn't do too much damage either. Etd ships in general could probably do with a little bit more armor but lack of calcs makes it a bit difficult to see if this is indeed a problem or actually good design. (So I guess disregard that for now) - Ter FI E/R makes them look a bit vulnerable to Ants (who'd ever say that...) As for the ant - comparing it to last round's beetle/spider situation, Santa ended up adding 1 more gun to the spider/ant and increasing it's E/R to compensate for it's init. It might be needed here as well, altho your Ant is a lot cheaper so again, who knows - just thought I'd FYI. Edit moving on: Pedlar (DE, norm, t1 BS) - I don't like it at all. It has lower init and a/c than Pegasus, but more expensive and costlier in crystal than metal (was this an emp before?). Scavenger (BS, steal, t1 DE) - don't really see this is a useful ship. DE targets both CR and BS and you already have a CR who steals DE. Even if it were normal, I wouldn't know why I'd build it - it has no advantage over the CR (in fact, CR is t2 to Etd DE, but BS is t1). Cutter (DE, steal t1 CR) - same as the scavenger, FR version exists and both are T1 by CR. Maybe lower init would help it. Dreadnaught (CR, norm, t1 DE) - same as above, Wyvern takes it. Centaur (FR, norn, t1 FI) - same as above, Chimera takes it. Devastator might be useful against Xan FR, it looks decent, but not too practical. Probably a decent ally def ship tho. Etd DE in general - seems very expensive and little efficient compared to other DE. Etd FI looks quite good vs ally def, but no init advantage and the Vendor has very low D/C. Very high E/R however, guessing you want them as anti-beetle or something? Might be true for the whole race from the looks of it. The Predator (CR, cloak, t1 FR) looks very good, but it suffers from ETA so I'm gonna assume this is a selfcover ship. Might be cool if you manage to steal Zik Fr and then steal CR again, but... Meh, it's probably all right. Giving Ghost t2 CR might help it. Black Widow has DE alternative available as well, but massive price difference might make it viable. Actually a very good ship probably. I don't like that in general, you need 5 ships to shoot at everything (or leave a hole and rely on ally, but that favours the active more than already happens - dunno if thats a bad thing, but there it is) |
Re: Blue's Stats Discussion
There are a few ships that needs to be A) removed or B) edited
- Ghost - Centaur just by a short glance theres no doubt these two have no reason to be prodded what so ever. |
Re: Blue's Stats Discussion
What is the purpose of the Devastator? Why would anyone build it?
What is the purpose of the Centaur? WHy would anyone build it? WHy would anyone build Dreads over Wyvs? Overall you have so many non-roiding-classships which noone is going to build. See also; BWs, and to an extent cutters ad ghosts. Zik having 0 useful kilships usually means they are ****ed, especially in ST rounds. Apparitions alone will pretty much make BS fleets very unpopular The inits of xan fr seems too good. I'd give a non-xan race the best anti fi ship(hello zik). Just some brief thoughts from me, these stats need a lot more work. GL fixing the effs on ships like the Mantis who hits both BS class and FI, I'm fairly sure you'll discover it's pretty much impossible. |
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Ghost is more efficient than apparitions and synergies with other de class anti bs if thats the route an alliance decides for anti bs, i wont change the ship but may change its ac/dc But yeah like they're not final, cos i haven't touched emp stuff i'll let you know when ive done the balancing and seen how they operate in bcalcs |
Re: Blue's Stats Discussion
Guess i wouldve been going ter if this was the stats.
Cant realy make any more judgements on anything before the stats are closer to be finished. |
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Scarab: T1 Fi hits with around 60-70% cost eff T2 Cr hits with 220-260% cost eff Marauder T1 Fr hits around 120% cost eff - though up to 170% and as low as 57% T2 Bs hits around 60% cost eff The others are not as bad as might be feared. Still the divergent T2s don't seem work very well and might be difficult to balance unless you specifically don't intend people to consider the T2s when building ships. EDIT: clearly changes are being made - though I think the general point will likely stand. So ignore me for the moment. Blue_Esper if you could say when you have finished fiddling so others can make their comments without them becoming instantly out of date it would be useful. |
Re: Blue's Stats Discussion
OK all major changes have been made go ahead of play around with calcs etc
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Re: Blue's Stats Discussion
the "divergent T2's" are like that because they're supported in a team up by another race T1'ing that
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Re: Blue's Stats Discussion
It has been a while since I played a ST round but I have to admit I thought the point of them was that teamups would not be nearly so necessary – yet here you seem to say you are building it on the assumption of teamups.
A quick look at the attack fleets. I am not going to go into what defships everyone needs – the need for five or even six ships per race would make this post too long! Terran: Built on the good old Terran assumption that it will absorb lots of damage. This does however mean it is going to be difficult to attack with. Fighters: can only realistically target Zik and Cat – it is VERY good against cats. Both Etd anti Fi ships have the init advantage, same with Xan. I am guessing this would mostly be used as a secondary fleet that is really there as defships. Destroyers: probably has even less option as most things at ally def eta 7 fire before them; Viper, banshee, cutlass and vendor. The only one that does not fire first is Terrans own phoenix but I would imagine a Terran with Fi is also likely to have Wyverns to sort that problem out. Battleships: This leaves Bs as Terrans main attack fleet which is better although it has to contend with the Ghost in particular but also the clipper and the pedlar. Terran therefore might if anything need up armoured to deal with its lack of init advantages. Cathaar: The usual – in an attacking set of stats that is almost ST one would expect them to be pretty good. Corvettes: of course has the init advantage but the beetle us not especially effective by cat standards ranging from just under 120% against Ter Fi to 180% against xan Fi, I rather hope that this means that cat co is not actually op. Destroyers: De again suffers against Fi as a result of the Scarab firing first against Cr meaning it has disastrous effectiveness against Fighters. As Blue Esper mentions they desperately need to team with Etd as alone Xan fakes will stop Cat de in their tracks. Otherwise what you would expect from cat. Cruisers: Cr looks to me the best cat fleet. Its main weakness is that the Retailer fires before the tarantula. With all cat fleets with a weakness you might just have managed to avoid op Cats! Good Job! Xandathrii: Low initiatives but paper thin, as xan should be – though they might not actually be paper thin enough to compensate for better initiative against almost everything that kills. Fighters: Only the Investor as a kill ship has better initiative than xan fi so can potentially attack almost anything – emp should be a weakness but as mentioned the way the scarab fires means this is only a weakness against beetles. Frigates: Xan fr fires simultaneously with a lot of things that targets it. The Vsharrak at the same time as both the Phantom and the Cutlass and the Apparation fires with the Tycoon. I am not sure you really want to cause so much nervousness in the pa community as hours and minutes get counted down on faked Xan Fr flying in on calcs that are horrible for both sides! Three ships actually fire before Xan Fr; the Predator, the Fireblade and the Wyvern. Still given their low armour I suspect it is enough that fr will mostly be used for def and as a fake. Cruisers: The Cr looks good fires before all non emp except the Gryphon. The Peacekeeper fires simultaneously. Frankly I think this fleet is overpowered. With the additional option of faking 3 fleets I think Xan is too good at the moment even with their weak armour. Zikonian: Well the addition of the norm ships helps, but not a lot Zik will still have trouble attacking. Corvettes: oddly making the cutlass normal does not help too much. The ship is not very effective against De – only just over 40% cost eff against Ter de; dire! - better against Fr but there are only 2 Fr ships that target Co; the Vsharrak and the thief. The Vsh fires simultaneously and a steal co could have fired before the Thief (and the Dealer for that matter)! What were you thinking with this ship? For the fleet as a whole ally def will probably kill any chance of solo roiding. Frigates: Fr at least having the Clipper allows you to target Etd and Terran bs fleets – if they don't have predators (simultaneous again!) for the Etd or Harpies for the Terran. Otherwise same problem with ally def... Cruisers: ...and same again. I think Blue Esper must have been thinking of the Clipper and Cutlass defensively as they provide little help on attack. This is odd because Zik stealers are usually quite good defensively without the addition of low init ships. Eitrades: very mixed. Fighters: Fi looks pretty bad – neither ship has T1 against alliance defence! This is not as bad as it seems due to how comparatively little ally def there is against Fi only the Corsair, Beetle and Executive. Having their own anti co ship fire first seems to me to be odd – I would make the Vendor fire before the Exec particularly as the Exec is already out inited by their Xan targets. Against fr/de they are not much better; thief fires before broker! And investor before Vendor. Destroyers: De is a much better fleet investor will roid those otherwise op Xan fi fleets. Pedlar allows gets the better over Etd Bs but *sigh * fires at the same time as the Wyvern. The Dealer being steal is not as much of a problem as it could be; as mentioned the Cutlass is pretty bad against De. Though xan and zik cr would be a worry for anyone playing this. The Dealer is surprisingly underpowered compared to other steal ships. Battleships: And finally Etd Bs is not very effective. It is good against cr. However being dire against Fr/De probably kills its chances. The Tycoon finds itself firing after or the same time as every Fr/De that targets Bs! I said I would not mention def ships – but not only does Xan have some of the best attack fleets it has some of the best def ships. Traditionally Xan is weak against Cr/Bs but here the Ghost fires before both etd and ter bs while the fireblade fires simultaneously with Xan Cr and of course before Zik. I don't like ST – or almost ST as this is – so perhaps I am being too negative if so I apologise. I think Zik could still use an improvement – perhaps make those normal ships help at preventing alliance def not just gal def, Terran armour could be boosted if not going to improve their inits, and perhaps there should be less ships firing at each other at the same time. |
Re: Blue's Stats Discussion
the only solo'ing happens during the first 100-200 ticks, after that pretty much everyone is in a team up so i think that making stats for pure solo'ing is unrealistic.
Changes made: Scavenger now init 6 Norm ship with reduced dmg Wyv now init 5 mantis guns reduce by 1 |
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Re: Blue's Stats Discussion
I agree. Every roidingfleet should be able to solo at least a couple of other races.
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Re: Blue's Stats Discussion
there are solo options, but you can't solo every race with every fleet
Here is the list for you (this is assuming all races pick all ships and dont follow an alliance strat) Ter fi zik/cath de cath bs ter/cath/etd Cat co hit anyone de hit anyone however will struggle vs fi based races cr hit anyone Xan fi ter/cath/zik fr Cath cr etd/cath/zik Zik reliant on how other races are setup but can hit cath on its own anyway ETd fi cath/zik (possible ters who dont build centaurs de cath bs cath |
Re: Blue's Stats Discussion
SO basically etd and zik are useless for soloing
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Re: Blue's Stats Discussion
when they're teamed up like they are in an actual round, the possiblities of who one can hit increase
Fi Zik/cath/ter Co Anyone Fr Ter/cath De Anyone Cr anyone Bs ter/cath/xan/etd |
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I know you are always at the mercy of the race mixture, but this sounds particularly bad. Im no good at analysing stats so i leave that to others, but not more than a week back i was arguing about lolwaves with people who wanted more soloing; how did we get from there to designing things for teams? |
Re: Blue's Stats Discussion
Or, maybe if you want to solo attack, dont go with the 1 race that shines in a team up but is bad on its own?
Good shipstats give people options to pick the race or shipcombo that suits with the way they want to play. It doesn mean all races have to be equally good or bad at all things. |
Re: Blue's Stats Discussion
If there is one race that should be bad solo it should be xan; they can always fake and hope! Send three pod types and there is a good chance one will not be covered. Yet here xan is the most playable solo race.
Shhhh what does Zik and Etd bring to teams? Zik Fr brings the clipper to target Bs against anything else it is just reliant on the other races. Zik Co and Cr brings a bit of killing to a Cat partner but this is again more a benefit to the Zik then the Cat. Zik Cr does not bring anything to the table for Xan - it just damages it by reducing its faking ability. Etd De is clearly needed by Cats playing De. But Etd Bs is not immensely helpful to Terran except to emp fireblades that are 2nd target Bs anyway. Etd Fi does not benefit Xan Fi at all - again damaging faking possibilities - and brings little benefit to Ter Fi because they are so similar. |
Re: Blue's Stats Discussion
ter and etd fi without xans can hit everyone but xans and etd so xan fi allows fi team ups to hit etd with executors as defence and wouldn't nessecarily be needed on other attacks
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Re: Blue's Stats Discussion
The problem is that the etd and ter need the xan, the xan does not need the other two and indeed finds the other two harmful. Why should he team and limit his faking options?
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Re: Blue's Stats Discussion
because he gets monstered by cath co and needs the ter fi/etd fi to change that
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Re: Blue's Stats Discussion
Okay, my suggestion is as follows;
Make the Dealer a FR class EMP ship targetting FI/CO init 3 Make the Pedlar a FR class ship stealing CR init 21 Remove the ETD DE pod GIve ETD a FR pod Make the MOTH init 1 Make the viper init 2 This should make FR fleets a lot more viable and interesting. Meaning every metaclass now is very good when teamed up. This also means that etds can attack terran solo with fr giving them another target to hit. |
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Yeah that's true bobzy, but I'm gonna assume the Scarab is gonna be changed as having T1=FI and T2=FI simply doesnt work. Better to just have it be T1 = CR and the MOTH be T1=FI T2=CO
ALso, if etds steal DE pods they can send Investors + pod along with caths and ters. |
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I woudlnt want to play around with the stats that much outside your original ideas of it.
3 Pod stats usualy means that the "solo" landing options aint suppose to be that wide for every race. |
Re: Blue's Stats Discussion
Changes:
broker now cloaked init 6 much lower armor and slightly lower damage predator now steal init 21 with higher armor and damage vsh init 5 slightly more armor harpy init 7 slightly more armor |
Re: Blue's Stats Discussion
You say the Centaur is there for fr/de forts..... The Centaur and is init 8 and outside the primary DE fleet with Chims at init 7 and in primary DE fleet. Why would anyone build both Cents for anti fi then Pegs for anti BS(being its the only anti bs ter has) When they could just build both DE ships for better flaking purposes as well as not making their loss potential greater since the incoming roiding fleets will have both anti fr/de attk ships.
Also saying every race has solo potential and then list cath as the trgt for all races is....duh? Zik needs to have at least 1 good normal ship for either attk or defence. Otherwise zik will be every hard to play due to having an awesome attack fleet one day then having nothing at all. They could have 70% value in their attk fleet (co for example) then all the sudden only have 30% and have 30% fr or de.... sure the steal is nice? especially if they had 0 loss and value gained from the steal/salvage. Serious Zik players do not want to have this happen though. I would recall my fleet from 100 roid land before i capped usless ships and cut my roiding fleet in half. |
Re: Blue's Stats Discussion
Still too many ships, still not a big fan of 3 (or more) roid fleets.
"Split" targetting (Bs/Fi) etc is functionally worthless. Stop doing it. One up, one down. . |
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I dont have a problem with lots of ships, and despite Cochese's comment I dont think most others do either. They just think that a lot of these ships wont actually be used. I personally think it at least gives people an extra option but it does cause problems such as being a pitfall for new players/those who don't understand the stats.
For example with Etd you clearly expect the Distributator (what's with the name? We cant even shorten it to Dist!) and the Executive to be alliance defence. And it is quite likely that alliances will see that to. But for the actual Etd player why build either? If they want to stop Fi incs they need to build investors so why should they invest in a second ship to do the same job less well? If they want to stop Bs incs they will probably be building Pedlars because they fire before both Bs fleets and kill things rather than just emping them... with the added bonus that both of these are in what will probably be most etd's main attack fleet. P.S. why explain things to individuals over IRC when it may just mean you have to explain them multiple times? I agree with Truhatred on Cents - Terrans in your stats need flack, why would someone build a ship that cant be flacked? I could see a benefit if it was at alliance def eta but it is not so you cant even rely on flack coming from your alliance. The ship would probably be better off as a Corvette despite phants hitting it T1 instead of T2. This would slightly help another problem that there is comparatively little anti fi alliance eta def possible. The Beetle will be in attack fleets, as is the corsair which leaves the exec which as mentioned probably wont be built in sufficient numbers. |
Re: Blue's Stats Discussion
Cath CO seems a bit too strong to me, Vipers have over 100 eff against Thief which is T2 to it and probably the only ship worth defending against Cath (daggers get rolled over by beetles with a huge margin just like all fi).
Otherwise stats seem interesting, Clipper and Distributator could use a T2 target to add utility. (or atleast dist, which doesnt fit into attack fleet anyway) |
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ive tried to balance the vipers by giving them good eff's because of their low init with spiders and moths firing before them. |
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Changes:
Dreadnaught now targets BS slight boost to damage Peacekeeper init now 6 Slight boost to Maras att/def |
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Ter Fi: Just 1 Co->Fi ship with better init than the Harpy, but lots of Fr/De that beats it. Switch targets on the Harpy?
Ter De: Every race has something that fires before this fleet. Looks bad. Ter Bs: The De hole hurts badly. Only 1 race has no De -> Bs ship. Only viable in teamups with Etd. Cat Co: Init 3 Viper! Interestink. The Moth will make De forts pretty good. A small E/Res buff for Cat Co seems reasonable, to (partly) compensate for this hole. Cat De: I'm less of a fan of the way you set up the Scarab/Roach. The De fleet is already fairly weak offensively, because it has 3 ships, and now it has to deal with the Roach too. Cat Cr: This fleet has the even more problematic Retailer to deal with. Neither makes me very happy. I feel like these will weaken Emp overall, making it merely playable for top ranked planets, and useless for everyone else. Xan Fi: Seriously overpowered. Only Cat can deal with this, and Etd De players can self-cover. Xan Fr: I like that Fr/De defence doesn't shoot itself, making covering fakes less dangerous. Beyond that, this fleet looks fairly weak. Nearly every race has something to counter it, and the low ERes makes it fall apart to just a token Cat presence. Xan Cr: The general weakness of Fr/De makes this a pretty strong fleet. There's no Bs->Cr ship that fires before it, either. Probably needs a nerf. Zik Co: Needs Cat co, since every race has a Fi->Co ship, and only for Etd is it T2. Pure Beetle/Cutlass teamups will turn out very strong, if you have access to a reliable partner. If not... no point going Zik Co. Zik Fr: Without a decent teamup partner this fleet is dead as shit. Zik Cr: Lack of a kill ship hurts solo capabilities, but this has a good teamup partner in Cat, again. If you stick with Co/Cr, Cat/Zik alliances will do very well indeed. Too well, in fact. (I'm also worried about Zik A/C in general. Ships that die before they fire deal no damage.) Etd Fi: Worse than Xan Fi in every possible way except ERes. Not seeing the point of this fleet. Etd De: The Investor is delicious, Dealer is useless (terrible init, and steals into the wrong classes), and "Pedlar" should be spelled "Peddler". Mixed bag. Etd Bs: Weak. Every race save Ter has something that beats this handily, and even Ter has a De->Bs ship that fires at the same time as the Tycoon. (Also "Distributator"? Try Distributor.) I feel like these stats are still very much a work in progress. There are vast differences in the viability of the various roiding fleets. Fr/De/Bs looks fairly weak, while Co/Cr and Xan Fi are very strong. Ter and Etd are (very) weak, Cat/Zik together are very strong, Cat and Xan do well solo, and Zik is crap solo. All that is fixable though. My primary concern is the strength of Cat/Zik alliance strategies. I would limit the cooperation between Zik and Cat to 1 fleet. Counter Zik's terrible solo strength by giving one of its fleets the ability to team up with an Etd fleet with an EMP ship in it. Xan Fi just needs to exchange one of its ships' init with that of one of Etd's Fi to balance things out, and Fr/De's weakness can probably be resolved through eff changes alone. |
Re: Blue's Stats Discussion
You were right with "Distributor" (that error has been irritating me fo a while) but Pedlar is the correct spelling, although rarely seen these days.
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Re: Blue's Stats Discussion
You are totally right, it's pedlar in UK english. Guess I'm on the US side of the ocean on this one.
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Re: Blue's Stats Discussion
Changes:
Scarab removed t2 Moth added t2 Fi (by popular demand) Dealer removed t2 Pedlar added t2 Cr apparition and pegasus now init 9 Pirate init 19 |
Re: Blue's Stats Discussion
stats are now in appocomasters hands
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In my opinion Xan still overpowered (both fi/cr attack fleets are very good and their anti cr/bs - the fireblade and peacekeeper - is still unusually good), and zik is still very difficult without a dedicated cat partner(s). These changes very marginally improved anti cr through the pedlar and marginally helped against xan fi through the moth (frankly xan fi should not be gunning for cat to start with!) but I don't think they made any fundamental difference to how people will perceive xan's strength and zik weakness.
That aside even if smaller than I would have liked the changes all seem pretty sensible to me. |
Re: Blue's Stats Discussion
Zik actually is unplayable the way that it is, which is guess is fine since the other 4 races are playable. I imagine that we will see alot Etd/Ter universe since they have SO much synergy Fi/De/Bs They can attack with all 3 of their pod classes together. Which will be appealing and given both races are heavy constructors I can quite imagine seeing them as a dist heavy strat.
Changes that I would suggest: Corsair init 20-> 5 Steal-> Norm d/c 420 A/c 400 (makes Zik Co win vs etd/ter fi) Devastator T2: De (would help stop vs etd De team) Marauder init 19 -> 5 Steal-> Norm d/c 440 A/c 430 ( would allow for Zik Cr team to hit Ter And Xan.) Pedler init 7 -> 9 ( makes etd Bs able to attack something) |
Re: Blue's Stats Discussion
My apologies, I was being a little too negative in my most recent post; I was forgetting the change to the initiative of the Wyvern which I think makes ter bs a much more capable attacking fleet so leaving only zik that I am really negative about.
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Re: Blue's Stats Discussion
While I think Ter BS looks alright, they're simply too weak vs fico for my liking.
I don't see a way for me to go anything except xan or cat. I could contemplate Etd if I had a cath partner who goes DE, but I dunno.. |
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So this is the set being used then???
Can't see past etd/cat de. Lots of forts going on and with one class flakking and viper/Fi on defence. |
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Zik indeed looks weak to me...
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