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-   -   Gotta love lawyers (https://pirate.planetarion.com/showthread.php?t=190892)

Vaio 15 May 2006 13:26
Gotta love lawyers
 
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2-2180827.html

When did they stop being concerned about the people they represent and more interested in making lots of money ?

Marilyn Manson 15 May 2006 13:29
Re: Gotta love lawyers
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vaio
When did they stop being concerned about the people they represent and more interested in making lots of money ?
342 BC

KaneED 15 May 2006 13:29
Re: Gotta love lawyers
 
Lawyers have never been all about the money, they really care about the people whom they deal with :rolleyes:

Marv 15 May 2006 14:37
Re: Gotta love lawyers
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by KaneED
Lawyers have never been all about the money, they really care about the people whom they deal with :rolleyes:
Bollocks.

Paisley 15 May 2006 14:49
Re: Gotta love lawyers
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vaio
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2-2180827.html

When did they stop being concerned about the people they represent and more interested in making lots of money ?

Bloody high price for justice eh?
£7 eh.... better off with a kick up the baws than that.

IncubusGod 15 May 2006 16:46
Re: Gotta love lawyers
 
Sickening.

Nothing will be done though.

Kurashima 15 May 2006 18:21
Re: Gotta love lawyers
 
Absoloutely Not

The Meek will not inherit the earth. The lawyers already own it.

Yahwe 15 May 2006 21:04
Re: Gotta love lawyers
 
i'm glad we could have a rational and informed debate

SYMM 15 May 2006 21:34
Re: Gotta love lawyers
 
Think of the house prices though yahwe, don't you see?

roadrunner_0 15 May 2006 21:45
Re: Gotta love lawyers
 
thats been news up north on and off for ages

Nondescript Human 15 May 2006 22:41
Re: Gotta love lawyers
 
Everything seems to be in order here to me, I don't see what all the fuss is about. The lawyers are being paid at a market rate for the services they have rendered; if they were being overpaid, that is to say if the value of the work being done was not commensurate with the fees being paid and it were possible to have the same work done to the same standard for a lower price elsewhere, the government would have found someone else.

As far as the families are concerned, they are recieving recognition that their relatives' work was indeed responsible for their early deaths. Financial payments will never compensate for the loss of a loved one anyway; is £500 really any more acceptable than £7.13?

So they're getting everything they can realistically expect. Everyone's a winner.


Especially the lawyers!

Dante Hicks 15 May 2006 22:44
Re: Gotta love lawyers
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nondescript Human
is £500 really any more acceptable than £7.13?
Yes.

But anyway, without knowing any details I'm going to hazard a guess that the government are going to have to take a share of responsibility for setting up this (seemingly very administrative-heavy) process in the first place.

Vaio 16 May 2006 00:22
Re: Gotta love lawyers
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
i'm glad we could have a rational and informed debate
Well join the debate then you anonymous neg repping piece of shite.

furball 16 May 2006 00:31
Re: Gotta love lawyers
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vaio
Well join the debate then you anonymous neg repping piece of shite.
Accusing other people of neg repping anonymously is rarely a good idea without the relevant proof.

Vaio 16 May 2006 00:32
Re: Gotta love lawyers
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by furball
Accusing other people of neg repping anonymously is rarely a good idea without the relevant proof.
I know.

furball 16 May 2006 00:34
Re: Gotta love lawyers
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vaio
I know.
So do fundamentalist Christians.


If you don't have the proof, you're not heading down the right path without a startling admission of guilt. It's not likely that Yahwe will provide you with one.

Vaio 16 May 2006 00:44
Re: Gotta love lawyers
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by furball
So do fundamentalist Christians.


If you don't have the proof, you're not heading down the right path without a startling admission of guilt. It's not likely that Yahwe will provide you with one.
Oh sorry, I should have made myself clearer, I was told by someone who would know these things that it was Yahwe. He even told me what he put in his neg rep. Now short of CCTV footage of him posting his neg rep, I am not sure of what extra proof would make YOU happy.

Paisley 16 May 2006 00:52
Re: Gotta love lawyers
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nondescript Human
Everything seems to be in order here to me, I don't see what all the fuss is about. The lawyers are being paid at a market rate for the services they have rendered; if they were being overpaid, that is to say if the value of the work being done was not commensurate with the fees being paid and it were possible to have the same work done to the same standard for a lower price elsewhere, the government would have found someone else.

As far as the families are concerned, they are recieving recognition that their relatives' work was indeed responsible for their early deaths. Financial payments will never compensate for the loss of a loved one anyway; is £500 really any more acceptable than £7.13?
So how does this work again?

£5000 (+/-) for playing chicken with a puddle but only
£7.13 for working down the mines for many a year in all various conditions.

And all seems to be in order?

away and go back to playing with your toy motors.

Nondescript Human 16 May 2006 01:15
Re: Gotta love lawyers
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paisley
So how does this work again?

£5000 (+/-) for playing chicken with a puddle but only
£7.13 for working down the mines for many a year in all various conditions.

And all seems to be in order?

away and go back to playing with your toy motors.
Yeah, to be honest that wasn't a serious post at all.

JonnyBGood 16 May 2006 03:08
Re: Gotta love lawyers
 
It mentions at the end that an agreement has been reached (but not implemented?) for a minimum of £500 to each family. That said it also mentions that the lawyer's fees are paid entirely independently of each claim so except in cases where money is being "taken" away from the compensation (and I'd like to know in which cases this occurred) the blame doesn't seem to lie with the lawyers, who I would imagine received something close to the "market rate" for their services but more with whoever decided to pay the families of miners piss on a stick.

Yahwe 16 May 2006 07:46
Re: Gotta love lawyers
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
so except in cases where money is being "taken" away from the compensation (and I'd like to know in which cases this occurred)
As would I. Solicitors are regulated by the Law Society and it is against those regulations to take fees from compensation (in any type of case). So any firm that has done so will be shut down and any individual found to have so done will lose their practicing certificate.

But then it's easy for journalists to make baseless claims against lawyers.

Ramihyn 16 May 2006 10:10
Re: Gotta love lawyers
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
But then it's easy for journalists to make baseless claims against lawyers.
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Times
Yet some firms have also imposed success fees or administration fees, which were taken from their clients’ damages. Others made deductions that were paid to mining unions after clients were misled into believing that the union was in some way funding their claim.
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Times
Mark Gilbert Morse, meanwhile, continues to prosper. The firm has registered more than 25,000 claims. Of these, 14,776 have been settled, for which the lawyers have been paid £41.7 million by the Government, an average of £2,820 per claim.

When it first began handling claims, the firm’s lawyers sliced up to 25 per cent from the compensation awards made to its clients.

Although it has insisted that such deductions “were in accordance with the law and guidelines at the time”, Mark Gilbert Morse says that it has now voluntarily chosen to re-pay all the money it took from claimants’ compensation.
It seems it is just as easy for a lawyer to make baseless claims against journalists innit? ;)

Paisley 16 May 2006 10:53
Re: Gotta love lawyers
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
But then it's easy for journalists to make baseless claims against lawyers.
should we ask James Cowan in person then?

Yahwe 16 May 2006 12:46
Re: Gotta love lawyers
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ramihyn
It seems it is just as easy for a lawyer to make baseless claims against journalists innit? ;)
not really given that everything you quoted agreed with my full post.

Phil^ 16 May 2006 13:00
Re: Gotta love lawyers
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ramihyn
It seems it is just as easy for a lawyer to make baseless claims against journalists innit? ;)
consider the source of your information.
Journalists are hardly going to say they are making baseless claims are they?
neither are lawyers - the difference is lawyers are regulated as yahwe says.
the press print anything which sells, regardless of its accuracy which is why they get sued for libel and slander a lot.

Marilyn Manson 16 May 2006 13:03
Re: Gotta love lawyers
 
Stephen is unlikely to say that all lawyers are bandits, even if it were true. (Which it is.)

Dante Hicks 16 May 2006 13:08
Re: Gotta love lawyers
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil^
neither are lawyers - the difference is lawyers are regulated as yahwe says.
A lot of companies are regulated, this doesn't mean they are immune from doing wrong.

Ramihyn 16 May 2006 14:33
Re: Gotta love lawyers
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil^
consider the source of your information.
Journalists are hardly going to say they are making baseless claims are they?
neither are lawyers - the difference is lawyers are regulated as yahwe says.
the press print anything which sells, regardless of its accuracy which is why they get sued for libel and slander a lot.
Newspapers are regulated too. I didnt comment just because of the initial article linked or because of the two articles which i quoted but because of 7 or 8 articles i read about the subject (admittedly from the same source).

But if you read those articles/letters, you will see that The Times is citing several names/companies and that means they are sticking their neck out quite a lot. Either they are now in very deep sh*t - or they made sure those allegations arent completely unfounded.

Check for example the bottom paragraph of this letter:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article...148775,00.html

They certainly do play on the emotional side with this (for example the 7 pound compensation case might be badly chosen and the relation of lawyer fees vs. coal miner compensation isnt as bad as they make it sound), but in general they do seem to have a point here. I fully assume a bunch of lawyers had way more saying in implementing this compensation and fee scheme then coal miners.

In germany courts ruled that mass-processings of similar cases do NOT allow you to charge the same "Brago" fees you could charge for each individual case because in the past lawyers did use that to "exploit" the legal fee system. Fees dropped for individual cases from something like 1300€ down to 65€-150€ AFAIR.

Its not a "newspaper against all lawyers" anyway - http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article...142351,00.html

I dont see why people make such a big fuss about denying that many lawyers are in it for the money. From my experience most of IT students are in it because of the money and i heard that it is the same for law. I personally know more then one lawyer who admitted in private that he is in it for the money - why the irrational claim that once they finish their studying and get a degree they mostly want to make the world a better place and do pro bono work :(

Yahwe 16 May 2006 19:47
Re: Gotta love lawyers
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ramihyn
so what's the problem?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ramihyn
I dont see why people make such a big fuss about denying that many lawyers are in it for the money. From my experience most of IT students are in it because of the money and i heard that it is the same for law. I personally know more then one lawyer who admitted in private that he is in it for the money - why the irrational claim that once they finish their studying and get a degree they mostly want to make the world a better place and do pro bono work
I never claim extremes.

Few criticise nurses because of Benjamin Geen or doctors because of Harold Shipman.

The majority of solicitors become solicitors because they actually like the law and enjoy the job. they certainly don't remain solicitors if they don't like the law or the job.

Nobody who becomes a solicitor is stupid enough to not realise that there are easier (less stressful less intellectually demmanding) jobs they could be doing for far more money.

I'm afraid that British solicitors simply do not command the salary of their American counter parts and frankly the British training regime/amount of places is just harder.

A lot of the propaganda against 'lawyers' comes from blinkered ignorance (and that ignorance is evident by the fact that such exponents use the phrase 'lawyer' in the first place ...)

Paisley 16 May 2006 23:55
Re: Gotta love lawyers
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
so what's the problem?



I never claim extremes.

Few criticise nurses because of Benjamin Geen or doctors because of Harold Shipman.

The majority of solicitors become solicitors because they actually like the law and enjoy the job. they certainly don't remain solicitors if they don't like the law or the job.

Nobody who becomes a solicitor is stupid enough to not realise that there are easier (less stressful less intellectually demmanding) jobs they could be doing for far more money.

I'm afraid that British solicitors simply do not command the salary of their American counter parts and frankly the British training regime/amount of places is just harder.

A lot of the propaganda against 'lawyers' comes from blinkered ignorance (and that ignorance is evident by the fact that such exponents use the phrase 'lawyer' in the first place ...)
Lawyers are pretty much like pest control...
you contact both just to get the job done regardless how they get the results.

Vaio 17 May 2006 01:02
Re: Gotta love lawyers
 
Do all legal types deliberately ignore questions they don't want to answer or is it just the chosen ones ?

Phil^ 17 May 2006 01:05
Re: Gotta love lawyers
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vaio
Do all legal types deliberately ignore questions they don't want to answer or is it just the chosen ones ?
sounds more like politicians to me, personally :D

Vaio 17 May 2006 01:11
Re: Gotta love lawyers
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil^
sounds more like politicians to me, personally :D
heh

Paisley 17 May 2006 01:53
Re: Gotta love lawyers
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
so what's the problem?

A lot of the propaganda against 'lawyers' comes from blinkered ignorance (and that ignorance is evident by the fact that such exponents use the phrase 'lawyer' in the first place ...)
http://scotlandonsunday.scotsman.com...m?id=843452002

for example the defense lawyer used the tactic of break the witness, witness cant give evidence, case folds.... luckly that didnt happen.

When lawyers use tactics like that to get their results,
No wonder no one likes them.

furball 17 May 2006 07:40
Re: Gotta love lawyers
 
The barrister is there to do a job to the best of their ability, whether acting for the prosecution or the defence. Sometimes the best defence involves getting nasty (questioning sexual history, for example). The moral rights and wrongs of this are immaterial. It is the barrister's job to do it.

Yahwe 17 May 2006 07:53
Re: Gotta love lawyers
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paisley
http://scotlandonsunday.scotsman.com...m?id=843452002

for example the defense lawyer used the tactic of break the witness, witness cant give evidence, case folds.... luckly that didnt happen.

When lawyers use tactics like that to get their results,
No wonder no one likes them.
I don't quite understand how you come by your omniscience.

There is an almost complete ignorance of the legal system on the part of lay people (non-lawyers). This ignorance becomes contemptible when it is compounded by an unwavering reliance on misleading media reports written to sell papers, gain votes and at the behest of pressure groups.

Yahwe 17 May 2006 07:56
Re: Gotta love lawyers
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vaio
Do all legal types deliberately ignore questions they don't want to answer or is it just the chosen ones ?
when we had proper mods you would have been banned for trolling and spam.

Kurashima 17 May 2006 09:47
Re: Gotta love lawyers
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
when we had proper mods you would have been banned for trolling and spam.
Dont push it Steven.

Dante Hicks 17 May 2006 11:22
Re: Gotta love lawyers
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by furball
The moral rights and wrongs of this are immaterial. It is the barrister's job to do it.
"Friends, let me tell you about another group of hate mongers who were just following orders..."

milo 17 May 2006 11:53
Re: Gotta love lawyers
 
thats unfair, the lawyers are there to ensure balance, the army and totalitarianist regimes are not.

Dante Hicks 17 May 2006 11:54
Re: Gotta love lawyers
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by milo
thats unfair, the lawyers are there to ensure balance, the army and totalitarianist regimes are not.
I was just quoting Clerks dear, I don't really care.

milo 17 May 2006 11:55
Re: Gotta love lawyers
 
:(

Marilyn Manson 17 May 2006 12:09
Re: Gotta love lawyers
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
when we had proper mods you would have been banned for trolling and spam.
So would you. You were nearly banned a while back by the hang-wringing softies currently in charge.

I say bring back Mer!

We need that kind of testosterone-fuelled approach to modding back.

Dante Hicks 17 May 2006 12:37
Re: Gotta love lawyers
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by milo
:(
Well, if you want me to care then I'd say that the fact there is "balance" doesn't eliminate the notion of moral responsibility. Do we say that soldiers are allowed to do what they want on the basis they are "balanced" by enemy troops in some sense?

Either way the fact it's their job hardly makes it OK (if it's wrong in the first place, which is unclear).

milo 17 May 2006 13:03
Re: Gotta love lawyers
 
id question the notion of moral responsibity when defending someone who hasn't been found guilty, im reluctant to start discussing moral responsibility since its all subjective, the lawyers are there to ensure that the person is at least defended. Soilders aren't allowed to do whatever they want, and neither are lawyers!

Dante Hicks 17 May 2006 13:12
Re: Gotta love lawyers
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by milo
id question the notion of moral responsibity when defending someone who hasn't been found guilty
Why? Clearly, there are somethings which are acceptable and some which are not in the pursuit of their duty (i.e. defending their clients). As you say, they are not allowed to do what they want, and the rules which govern what they are allowed to do must be based ultimately on some notion of morality (i.e. what is justified and what is not).

The point originally raised is that their behaviour in the case mentioned might not be strictly against the rules but might still be wrong in some sense. furball's responses of ignoring morality "because it's their job" which was what I was responding to.

edit : It could be worse, our lawyers could do stuff like this : http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4989034.stm

JonnyBGood 17 May 2006 13:36
Re: Gotta love lawyers
 
There's a problem with having lawyers with a sense of morality which they allow to impact on their jobs as lawyers though. If you have a case where you have two lawyers and they're told to find "the truth" in a court case you're leaving it open to manipulation and personal opinion. However if they're each just arguing for, or against, to the best of their ability you know precisely what you are getting. Long term I think having certain avenues of questioning blocked off would lead to more incorrect decisions being reached than otherwise.

Ste 17 May 2006 14:27
Re: Gotta love lawyers
 
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4989034.stm
Quote:
A gunman has opened fire inside Turkey's highest court in Ankara injuring five judges, two seriously.
...
The attacker, believed to be a lawyer, was detained by police and is being questioned but his motive is not clear.
Crazy lawyers.

Paisley 18 May 2006 00:52
Re: Gotta love lawyers
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
I don't quite understand how you come by your omniscience.

There is an almost complete ignorance of the legal system on the part of lay people (non-lawyers). This ignorance becomes contemptible when it is compounded by an unwavering reliance on misleading media reports written to sell papers, gain votes and at the behest of pressure groups.
The def lawyer in that case was a complete and utter c*nt
So much so parliment changed the law to prevent such a thing happening again.
You dont need to be a lawyer to know that his defense strategy was to break the witness so that the case folds regardless of the "implications" I.E head fked with her to the point she decided to top herself.
The law profession isnt as honourable as you are trying to make it out.

what is it you dont understand?

IncubusGod 18 May 2006 02:50
Re: Gotta love lawyers
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
when we had proper mods you would have been banned for trolling and spam.

And you've had been burnt alive for being a c**t.

Or at least banned AGAIN and this place left in a little peace for a while.


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