Planetarion Forums

Planetarion Forums (https://pirate.planetarion.com/index.php)
-   Strategic Discussions (https://pirate.planetarion.com/forumdisplay.php?f=5)
-   -   R31 shipstats (https://pirate.planetarion.com/showthread.php?t=197584)

Gate 23 Mar 2009 20:43

R31 shipstats
 
The current build of next round's ship stats is here (works in firefox or chrome. Otherwise copy into any text editor and mess around until the columns are in line!)

Previous drafts are here: draft 1, draft 2.

Useful feedback is constructive, but even if you're scared of critique-ing them properly it does help if you say which race you'd go for, what fleet you'd build and why.

EMP power isn't put in until they're ingame. Expect similar EMP power to this round generally speaking.



Alternatively, if these truly suck, we can use last round's with some minor modifications but tbh, after 10 weeks I guess a break would be nice.

Mzyxptlk 23 Mar 2009 20:58

Re: R31 shipstats
 
4) Balance/tweak the current set but don't introduce significant changes.

isildurx 23 Mar 2009 20:58

Re: R31 shipstats
 
I really would like to keep the current setup with 2-4 podclasses per race as I think it is alot of fun.


edit: Not necessarily these stats but just the amount of podclasses

[ND]Byrney 23 Mar 2009 21:55

Re: R31 shipstats
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk (Post 3168147)
4) Balance/tweak the current set but don't introduce significant changes.

How is that different to option 1? I think it's a good option though, stats this round are pretty good imo.

isildurx 23 Mar 2009 21:57

Re: R31 shipstats
 
If this rounds stats were changed id like to see the harps init get changed and maybe etd emp efficiency get tweaked down a bit atleast.

Zaejii 23 Mar 2009 22:19

Re: R31 shipstats
 
there are some obvious weaknesses and strengths with this round's stats, but that being said i'm a fan of the multiple pod classes and choice of multiple fleets to build and be effective.

i'm a fan of #1, but more than the harpy would need to be changed, which is why i think Mz made a #4. for instance, ETD Gryphon at first glace is a good ship, but it hardly ever gets to fire and ends up being used as emp flak.

edit: mz's comment was not many significant changes, sorry i forgot how to read! so with that in mind, my gryphon comment gets lumped in with #1 and nothing applies to #4 ;)

Gate 24 Mar 2009 03:34

Re: R31 shipstats
 
I think 1) and 4) are the same. The harpy was only given as an example...

Makhil 24 Mar 2009 08:30

Re: R31 shipstats
 
A new set is always welcome, keep the idea of multiple pods as it is brilliant, but R31 with a new owner should see new stats. If multi targeting could avoid to always fire at a single metaclass (Fico, Frde, or Crbs) it would be great too. Bs firing at FI-FR, CO targetting CR-DE, a FR firing at CO-FR-BS !... As for the eta issue, alliances forced to increase their members in a BP (less gal fencesitting), people having to rely more on gal def, that's all good.

Gate 24 Mar 2009 08:56

Re: R31 shipstats
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Makhil (Post 3168229)
A new set is always welcome, keep the idea of multiple pods as it is brilliant, but R31 with a new owner should see new stats. If multi targeting could avoid to always fire at a single metaclass (Fico, Frde, or Crbs) it would be great too. Bs firing at FI-FR, CO targetting CR-DE, a FR firing at CO-FR-BS !...

On the whole, cross firing being FI/CO and CR/BS is a bad idea. Having 3 ticks to gather defence and huge amounts of flak, or an extra tick to launch a surprise FC on CR/BS is generally broken. It made r13 cath almost unplayable for example.

If you look at the set I proposed, there is a little attempt at inventiveness with a DE that shoots CR & FR.

isildurx 24 Mar 2009 09:07

Re: R31 shipstats
 
I think FIs targetting f.ex FI\DE and FR targetting FR\FI could work..

It could make it harder to cover incs, which imo is good, due to f.ex there being an abundance of anti fi and if the fi then pull the co that it teams with can land due to the def having t2 of FR instead of the usual CO.
I know there has been some ships with such targetting in the last round, f.ex r29 revenant, but this is someting there could be more of.

Benneh 24 Mar 2009 09:14

Re: R31 shipstats
 
Can we get rid of t3 as well.

As christ it ruins faking so badly :/

Cochese 24 Mar 2009 13:27

Re: R31 shipstats
 
This is a pretty solid set of stats, and the multiple pod classes are great.

Make a few tweaks, but leave most of it as is.

Mzyxptlk 24 Mar 2009 14:58

Re: R31 shipstats
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by [ND]Byrney (Post 3168159)
How is that different to option 1? I think it's a good option though, stats this round are pretty good imo.

Modification can introduce more changes than tweaking.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Makhil (Post 3168229)
but R31 with a new owner should see new stats

What does this have to do with anything?

Makhil 25 Mar 2009 01:43

Re: R31 shipstats
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk (Post 3168264)
What does this have to do with anything?

That's just a personnal feeling, you don't have to share it

MrLobster 25 Mar 2009 02:58

Re: R31 shipstats
 
Yes I'm loving r30 stats, only need a small downgrade on Harpy, ETD BS, Cat DE, Defender.

Looking at your stats

Scorpion FR CO FI - 6 norm
Spider DE CO FI - 1 EMP

Why would you build scorps? would look like DE is cats main fleet again

Also i say no to Ter steal ships :)

Gate 25 Mar 2009 03:02

Re: R31 shipstats
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by MrLobster (Post 3168348)
Yes I'm loving r30 stats, only need a small downgrade on Harpy, ETD BS, Cat DE, Defender.

I'm still not convinced etd BS is overpowered. It's RAPED by bucc/bomber.

And cath DE doesn't seem so overpowered either. It doesn't kill anything, so xands can def with a ton of FI flak to absorb EMP, leaving smuggler/pulsar to fire...

Makhil 25 Mar 2009 03:40

Re: R31 shipstats
 
A lot of the fun in the game comes before the start of the round when you study the stats and try to find the race you can play to its best. That's why I'm always in favour of a new set, no matter how good was the previous one. Someone wrote "a bad new set is better that a good old one", I can't disagree. Ofc a good new one is even better.
R30 has lasted long enough I don't think it would be enjoyable to have a R30bis.

Annie 25 Mar 2009 16:33

Re: R31 shipstats
 
I love the Locust, Cath attacking Ziks for ships, you have to love that!

Please do not change that!

Cochese 26 Mar 2009 03:53

Re: R31 shipstats
 
Makhil makes a good point.

However, having to re-learn everything every ****ing round has gotten extremely dull.

[B5]Londo 26 Mar 2009 08:57

Re: R31 shipstats
 
I would like new stats; if only because I dunno what I would play with the same stats again :p

i quite like the bare bones of a stats-set gate proposed; it seems to take in the best features of the current set.

Zaejii 26 Mar 2009 10:53

Re: R31 shipstats
 
i like balanced stats that work. who cares if they're old or new?

the only real advantage to having newer stats, imo, is so that people don't play a particular race based on how they ranked up the round prior. people also won't build fleets based on what was good the previous round.

Gate 26 Mar 2009 11:13

Re: R31 shipstats
 
Running a set for two rounds worked well in (I think) r26/27, and possibly previously.

People get to learn stats first time through and maybe try something different afterwards.

Alternatively, we can alternate rounds. New set for r31 and use r30 again in r32.

Makhil 26 Mar 2009 11:15

Re: R31 shipstats
 
I don't like Caths having both init1 EMP ships and fast init kill ships like the Mantis. Somewhere between their Emp and Kill, the enemy should be able to fire.

MrLobster 26 Mar 2009 14:08

Re: R31 shipstats
 
I would like to able to play one of the other 4 races for r31, so keep the stats as they are with tweaks.

I dont think I have ever played zik, but i think this round the big fleets i have seen are ETD BS, which against TER CR have been nasty (most frozen, then some killed, before TE can even fire) and MASS defenders, smugglers have been few and far between.

Mzyxptlk 26 Mar 2009 14:20

Re: R31 shipstats
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Makhil (Post 3168514)
I don't like Caths having both init1 EMP ships and fast init kill ships like the Mantis. Somewhere between their Emp and Kill, the enemy should be able to fire.

Cath have 1 fast kill ship that only targets 1 class. (And they still ****ing suck.)

Rio 26 Mar 2009 14:33

Re: R31 shipstats
 
I would personally prefer a set of previous stats with the bugs fixed out of them if noone wants to make some new ones.
Having to look at the stats and pick out a strategy is part of the fun at the start of the round imo.

Buddah 26 Mar 2009 17:03

Re: R31 shipstats
 
r30 stats with major tweaks tbh :P
remove t3
make harpies less powerfull
fix xan cr hole
make etd bs less powerfull
change xan fi pod to co or fi and co pod class (like ter with cr & bs)
make ghost init 5 if salvage is still as retarded as this round.
make cat and etd stealers init 21 they shouldnt have as good stealers vs zik imo.

M0RPH3US 26 Mar 2009 17:06

Re: R31 shipstats
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Gate (Post 3168513)
Alternatively, we can alternate rounds. New set for r31 and use r30 again in r32.

pretty good idea me thinks

and if you change it just switch the targetclasses of harpy(+ higher the cost a bit) and remove the third target of broadsword, while you higher the costs of the defender

2 of those changes have been suggested by JBG, i am just stealing it, as they are good imo (yes i changed my mind about the etd stuff :p)

however having a break with those stats might be a good idea, and reintroduce em r32

regarding new r31 stats, i agree with ppl to keep the amount of podclasses. also the amount of diffrent ships iīd love to see sticked to, harder to balance everything i know, but simply offers more possibilities to play and therefor is a good thing

Zaejii 26 Mar 2009 17:49

Re: R31 shipstats
 
XAN has ALWAYS had a cr hole, unless you build mass bomber / spec / whatever the ship is for the round.

m0: need i point out how horribly inefficient ETD is versus FR? removing the t3 on broadsword would also allow ZIKs to freely steal their attack fleet with 0 risk.

M0RPH3US 26 Mar 2009 18:02

Re: R31 shipstats
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Zaejii (Post 3168574)
XAN has ALWAYS had a cr hole, unless you build mass bomber / spec / whatever the ship is for the round.

m0: need i point out how horribly inefficient ETD is versus FR? removing the t3 on broadsword would also allow ZIKs to freely steal their attack fleet with 0 risk.

the target 3 anything changing to that matter ?
i mean seriously, the few frigs which will be killed by the broads are not helping anything
but overall i think etd is too strong, they need a weakness also, atm they dont really have any apart from problems in solo-attacking and maybe huge fi/co waves (but who hasnīt)
however apart from cathaar there is hardly any race able to soloattack a decent player in a decent alliance, so why would you allow it to etd
etd got an awesome fr fleet if you ask me, your not forced to go bs

also there is 6 etd in the top12 of most roids, etd are simply hard to hit, so they can have a weakness in attacking if you ask me as they are the perfect race to keep their roids

Tiamat101 26 Mar 2009 18:40

Re: R31 shipstats
 
Personally I like the Current round stats.

I think either lower the damage on the Broad and lower its init to something manageable like 5 or 6.

Also Make the Beetle or Spider primary target Co's As it stands cath cant target Co's with any ship so even though they have init 1 they cant emp those defenders or smugglers if Xan/etd team up.

I also agree the Harpy is just too good.

Maybe give zik a meduim class way to target fr / de maybe add a kill ship and make it a Destroyer Init 4 or 5 depending what the ghost is.

JonnyBGood 26 Mar 2009 18:47

Re: R31 shipstats
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Tiamat101 (Post 3168592)
Also Make the Beetle or Spider primary target Co's As it stands cath cant target Co's with any ship so even though they have init 1 they cant emp those defenders or smugglers if Xan/etd team up.

There's a real problem with this unfortunately due to the way emp works in the combat engine.

Quote:

change xan fi pod to co or fi and co pod class (like ter with cr & bs)
I was going to do this initially and realistically if I hadn't dropped the harpy's init as a last minute response to the outright retardation shown by a lot of people on here and instead as more of a plan I'd probably have given xan both fi and co pods (and probably gotten rid of the fr fleet)

isildurx 26 Mar 2009 19:39

Re: R31 shipstats
 
I think weaking etd much is WRONG. If anything I think either the t3 of broad should be removed or the efficiency of the scorp should be lowered. It truly is not easy to land attacks as etd bs considering how good the bucc\chim is.

Besides this, Harpy is a natural ship that needs to be altered.

Zaejii 26 Mar 2009 21:10

Re: R31 shipstats
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by M0RPH3US (Post 3168579)
i mean seriously, the few frigs which will be killed by the broads are not helping anything

so zik should have a free steal vs every etd fleet? they already steal the co fleet at init 19 while smugglers fire back at init 20.

Quote:

Originally Posted by M0RPH3US (Post 3168579)
etd got an awesome fr fleet if you ask me, your not forced to go bs

a frig fleet that can't hit terran, can't stand up to the mass amount of viper around, that zik steal freely with mara, and lets not even talk about pulsar and shadow. so that makes the etd fr fleet awesome at what?

Quote:

Originally Posted by M0RPH3US (Post 3168579)
however apart from cathaar there is hardly any race able to soloattack a decent player in a decent alliance, so why would you allow it to etd

etd can solo attack? personally i've not landed a solo attack all round as etd. the bs fleet is too weak vs buccaneer + bomber, the co fleet is too weak vs bolt thrower, war frigate, thief, and lancer, and the de fleet is weak vs almost everything due to init.

i will agree that despite all of this, depending on your fleet composition, etd can be a challenge to roid, but attacking is not as easy as you seem to think.

isildurx 26 Mar 2009 21:31

Re: R31 shipstats
 
Dude its happening again, this is the guy that said xan fico was too strong preround remember...

M0RPH3US 26 Mar 2009 22:11

Re: R31 shipstats
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Zaejii (Post 3168615)
etd can solo attack? personally i've not landed a solo attack all round as etd. the bs fleet is too weak vs buccaneer + bomber, the co fleet is too weak vs bolt thrower, war frigate, thief, and lancer, and the de fleet is weak vs almost everything due to init.

i will agree that despite all of this, depending on your fleet composition, etd can be a challenge to roid, but attacking is not as easy as you seem to think.

if u read that i said etd can solo attack you misread, i never said it, and i know they canīt, i just said thereīs 3 other races who canīt either, so why should etd

and isil:
yes i was THE ONE, and because of ME it got changed, ONLY because of ME!!!

xan fi/co was too strong, and like 50% would have went xan if they wouldnt have been tweaked, the "tweak" was overdone heavily though more emo then due to strategical thinking
and i never said anywhere, that i liked that last minute changes to harpy/phant or that it was better then before
from overpowered xan it went to underpowered xan, which never was my intention

Zaejii 26 Mar 2009 22:15

Re: R31 shipstats
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Benneh (Post 3168234)
Can we get rid of t3 as well.
As christ it ruins faking so badly :/

i just had a 60 minute heated conversation with Kila (that remained fairly civil i think!) about this, and i was wondering if there was maybe something that i don't understand. as i posted before, removing the T3 off Broadswords would allow Terran Fr, Xan Fr, and Zik Fr all to defend Etd Bs with 0 loss. as it is, T3 is already horribly inefficient and doesn't do much. the Etd Co fleet already has fire first defence against it, as does the Etd Fr and De fleets, which forces normal size Etd to team up most of the time. how does having T3 on Broadswords make them so much more overpowered?

the only thing the T3 has an effect on is when a Terran fakes Fr as Cr. Broads, being one of the best anti-Cr ships out there, are sent in defence. therefore, it seems, that if a Terran wanted to fake something as Fr, it would be Bs. Bs is a weaker roiding fleet than Cr, but has fakability that Cr doesn't.

am i misunderstanding the situation where every race can roid one other race fairly easily (not accounting for defense) except for Etd where either the defence does not get targetted, the defence has init advantages, or the defence gets targetted as T3? removing T3 in this case is trivial, but at least doesn't allow Ter, Zik, and Xan the benefit of defending without loss.

i don't know, maybe there is something i'm missing. anyone care to nicely explain to me what i'm missing? and what makes the Etd Bs fleet so wonderful that it needs to lose a T3 to stop it from being so powerful?

isildurx 26 Mar 2009 22:20

Re: R31 shipstats
 
Just do broads t1 DE t2 FR..

Zaejii 26 Mar 2009 22:50

Re: R31 shipstats
 
then they won't have a T1 Cr, Cathaar emp them before Scorpion shoot back, and Gryphon is already terribad.

i sent Benneh a pm to talk about what he thought, he replied with: "a cloaked unit shouldnt have a t3. t3 normally is fine, but the fact its cloaked makes it horrific"

maybe that is something else to consider for next round before resorting to targetting changes perhaps?

Buddah 26 Mar 2009 23:22

Re: R31 shipstats
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Zaejii (Post 3168574)
XAN has ALWAYS had a cr hole, unless you build mass bomber / spec / whatever the ship is for the round.

m0: need i point out how horribly inefficient ETD is versus FR? removing the t3 on broadsword would also allow ZIKs to freely steal their attack fleet with 0 risk.


a cr hole is ok, but its horrible this round as most the universe have cr/bs attackfleet, that makes the cr hole harder to live with:P

Makhil 27 Mar 2009 05:01

Re: R31 shipstats
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk (Post 3168530)
Cath have 1 fast kill ship that only targets 1 class. (And they still ****ing suck.)

I was talking of Gate's proposed stats

zebra 27 Mar 2009 05:27

Re: R31 shipstats
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Makhil (Post 3168353)
A lot of the fun in the game comes before the start of the round when you study the stats and try to find the race you can play to its best. That's why I'm always in favour of a new set, no matter how good was the previous one. Someone wrote "a bad new set is better that a good old one", I can't disagree. Ofc a good new one is even better.
R30 has lasted long enough I don't think it would be enjoyable to have a R30bis.

How about balancing/tweaking an older set of stats? I don't see why the current round's are the only stats that could be balanced for r31. It would be 'like' new stats, but also balanced.

zebra 27 Mar 2009 05:53

Re: R31 shipstats
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by JonnyBGood (Post 3168593)
I was going to do this initially and realistically if I hadn't dropped the harpy's init as a last minute response to the outright retardation shown by a lot of people on here and instead as more of a plan I'd probably have given xan both fi and co pods (and probably gotten rid of the fr fleet)

I support this if some form of r30 stats are kept for next round. Salvage would need to be nerfed or the amount of size 0 suicide phantom fleets flying around would demoralizing.

Also with regard to r30 stats, there are 5 FI class ships (plus one podtype) and 6 CO class ships (plus two podtypes), yet there are 9 ships that target FI first (and 2 that target FI second) while there are only 4 ships that target CO first (and 8 that target CO second). Superficially this seems pretty skewed; from a total balance standpoint, why is it like this?

isildurx 27 Mar 2009 07:41

Re: R31 shipstats
 
I think it could be fun to use a old set of stats and make minor modifications to that!

JonnyBGood 27 Mar 2009 09:37

Re: R31 shipstats
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by zebra (Post 3168655)
I support this if some form of r30 stats are kept for next round. Salvage would need to be nerfed or the amount of size 0 suicide phantom fleets flying around would demoralizing.

Also with regard to r30 stats, there are 5 FI class ships (plus one podtype) and 6 CO class ships (plus two podtypes), yet there are 9 ships that target FI first (and 2 that target FI second) while there are only 4 ships that target CO first (and 8 that target CO second). Superficially this seems pretty skewed; from a total balance standpoint, why is it like this?

Partially it's a remnant of how I intended to balance xan fi without dropping the harpy init. However it's not as skewed as it may appear. All emp ships target fi/fr/bs first, it's not really that relevant. In terms of kill ships it's 6:4. Even then I don't feel it's actually unbalanced, just that it might seem that way due to the initially blatant disparity.

[JungleMuffin] 27 Mar 2009 10:11

Re: R31 shipstats
 
23/24/26/27 where the most enjoyable stats ive played.

Imo defensive ship stats are not in the interest of the game, or its players. Having to constantly recall attacks isnt fun, and being MASS teamed (which is usually the only way to land) is horrible, unless ur the local ally defsink.

People login for the "hmmm lets login and see how many i can cap today" factor, not the "hmmm how bad can i get raped on my attack/incs today" factor. No matter what you do, ur always going to lose roids, which makes the game less enjoyable, what makes it enjoyable again is capping them.

Theres also the added aspect of big guys being wtf hard to hit allready. Making it harder for them to be hit, is not in the interest in the majority of PA players, as they arent t10 defsinks.

Imo FR/DE, not including fleet capping, ruined this rounds fun.

[JungleMuffin] 27 Mar 2009 10:35

Re: R31 shipstats
 
Btw, Zae speaks gospel. All ETD attack fleets where horrid. I played ETD to go BS cos they looked unstoppable, but seriously, broads are shockingly bad, whoever says theyre OP needs to lay off the rocks.

The fact that there are several high ranked ETD out there, is less about the race, and more about the players playing it.

isildurx 27 Mar 2009 14:23

Re: R31 shipstats
 
And the fact that its quite easy to keep roids as etd

M0RPH3US 27 Mar 2009 18:17

Re: R31 shipstats
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Gate (Post 3168146)
this. It's far from ready, but it's got some stuff in it that I think is interesting.

personally i think there is too many fi/co pods around, terran and xan with co pods, cathaar with fi pods and zik with 2 co class ships to niceley flak any capped fi or co pod
even etd got the option to steal fi/co pods (they dont maintain very good flak, but in a teamup that doesnt really matter)

looks to me like it would be a massive fi/co round, which i dont think is a good idea, since there is only 1 tick to arrange defence (bad for everyone in a less active gal, i mean you canīt even go for a piss and not be smashed in the meantime <<< yes dramatically overdone, but you get the idea)

also i dont like to see a steal ship for terran, cathaar or xan, etd and zik is enough me thinks

just my quick thoughts about that set

Light 27 Mar 2009 18:23

Re: R31 shipstats
 
http://www.geocities.com/nd_wtf/r31set1.txt

That a joke? Whats the point in having races if you're going to slowly but surely give every race a Steal Ship, EMP ship, Normal ship, and Cloak Ship.

Why have terran got a steal ship? whats the reason for it? I dont think there is a reason other than 'i like teh steal ships'.

Wasnt it? Terran = Normal, Cath = EMP, Xan = CLOAK, Zik = STEAL and ETD = Mixture?


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 12:39.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.1
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright Đ2002 - 2018