Time to rethink?
Another stroke for the terrorist. Boy they're just 3 for 4 in the western hemisphere aren't they now. Not too shabby results.
1) Was the first bombing of the WTC - that seems like now like a big failure with no lasting repercussions. 2) 9/11 - The U. S. responds by helping to overthrow the Taliban in Afghanistan and invade Iraq creating a breeding ground for fanaticsm and a training ground for future islamic fighters. Also allowing the US to portray themselves to the Arabs as the Satan they've been made out to be. 3) Madrid Train Bombing - Mostly a PR victory - but also possibly changed the outcome of the Spanish election and got Spanish troops out of Iraq. 4) The London Bombings - led to those five shots that removed the illusionary stoicsm that seemed to cover the face of Britons. Note: if you're of Asian or Middle Eastern descent it is advised that you don't go running through London, especially in crowded areas - it may be hazerdous to your health - even if you did not just leave a house under surveillance. See now it is You in the spot, now it is you who is angry, aggresively patriotic and nationalistic. Go neg rep the angry American. I don't think what happened here was a good thing. And I'm not taunting any of you - all though I'd be lying if there wasn't just a bit of spite in me - but the truth is none of us really know how to deal with terrorism or how to fight it. I think we continually try to dismiss these non uniformed warriors as cowards and petty thugs. But the damage they are doing is not petty at all, is it. Maybe terrorism does work. Lebanon in the 1980's got the US to leave after hundreds of Marines were killed (I have met a Marine who was there that day the barracks were blown up). It has led to the victories I have already mentioned. Israel is leaving the Gaza strip - you don't really think that's because they've suddenly realized that they've been wrong all along and had serious change of heart do you? There are far fewer U.S. troops in Saudi Arabia then before the U.S. A.F. base was blown up. And now what do you think most Britons are talking about? What are most people in the world talking about right now? A certain someone having been shot five times. FIVE TIMES. I have fired semi-automatic hand guns (if that's what was used - an automatic rifle you wouldn't have been able to count the shots so easily) - five times is not just a calculated professional way to bring down a fugitive, at least it doesn't seem that way to most people who aren't getting emotionally defensive about it. |
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The reason five shots were used (it's rumoured, I'm not quite sure what to make of the BBC at the moment) is that low velocity bullets were used to minimise the risk to civilians hence more than one shot was needed to finish the fella off. If you've got someone who's been under surveillance for days for terrorist activity, then runs for it with wires coming out of him down a tube, I don't see any other option than restraining him, shooting him, and bloody well making sure he's out for the count cos if he isn't the last thing he's going to try and do, is blow himself up. From my view if what we've learned is true, everything is above board.
Seriously, as long as the security services have some kind of justification for it, I think people are pretty comfortable with the shooting. We're well aware that there might be some terrorist cell trying to beat us into submission, we can't let that happen, I'm afraid. And last I checked Northern Ireland was part of the UK, so terrorism doesn't always 'win'. |
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I've no problem with our police force shooting someone five times.
He was in the station, he was running for a reason, given the current situation that wasn't really a good move for an innocent foriegner. Either way, guilty of something or not, he shouldn't have ran. Natural selection took care of itself, with a little help from a 9mm round (or five). Win / win. |
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that part is larger now though. and the taliban isnt dead yet. as far as i know things become worse again in afganistan at the moment. and then you gave them a whole new playground in iraq.
madrid, london, egypt, turkey, ... i would not exactly call the war on terror a success just yet. |
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no matter how many threads you decide to make on the topic, or how many inflamatory posts you type, you can not change the fact that nothing has changed in Britain.
I don't know why the latest phase of your mental breakdown has become fixated on Britain, but we've had terrorist attacks for an awfully long time dear and nothing of our national psyche changed then, nor will it change now. |
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If they're shooting him, and he could have volatile explosive material strapped to his body, I'd prefer they shot him in the face rather than do his job for him. If they're going to shoot him in the face, you're going to kill him. What difference does 5 shots make over 1 shot, rather than making it more certain you are performing the task you set out to do? Killing someone with one bullet or 5 doesn't really seem that different to me. I sincerely doubt anyone completely innocent would run from armed police shouting repeatedly at him with weapons drawn. Unless they had a death wish, and in which case, wish granted. |
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If you somehow think that the Palestinians have beaten Israel you are quite mistaken. Current plans will have the Palestinians cut off into 3 separate groups and leave at least 3000 (I'm gonig from memory so I could be wrong here) cut off by the wall. What this move is I'm not really sure but I would imagine it is more of a move to try to improve it's international image rather than cowering at the feet of the mighty Palestinians.
In regards to the guy who was shot five times. We do not know all the facts. Even if the man was innocent (which I think is highly unlikely) and the cop(s) who shot him 5 times were racists looking for revenge it is still a totally different reaction and an isolated incident. Even though the London bombings were not an isolated incident and there is still the potential for more we haven't started a war over this. When the country was being bombed by the IRA we didn't go in and bomb Ireland. So if you are saying that this particular event is representitive of all of Britain you are wrong. If you are trying to imply that Britain is in some way reacting in a similar manner to the USA after 9/11 then you are very wrong. If you are saying that the role of 9/11 was to make the USA invade Afghanistan and Iraq then I think you are seriously deluded. It is possible that the attacks were meant to provoke the USA into making a relalatory strike but I don't think they would have expected anything on this scale. You say that you are likely to be shot if you are running and Asian. How can you possibly back that nonsense up? One person, who was being tracked by police was shot dead in unclear conditions. I wouldn't say that Britain has really changed at all. there is going to be a heightened level of awareness and nervousness amongst some people, but this is to be expected after a number of attacks. I would also expect this to fall back to normal levels in the not too distant future (if the bombings stop). |
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Would there be enough of his head left after the first few? I've not heard any mention of him being shot in the head, but maybe I've overlooked this. I assumed that they shot him 5 times in the chest, in which case if he had been wearing a bomb belt it woud have exploded. |
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Most cop bullets are turned out of nylon bar stock. they make a huge wound cavity but wont exit at all.
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The British 'stiff upper lip' attitude is largely a cultural myth - it has very little bearing on the actual responses to these kind of events. |
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The only issue here is whether the police had good reason to believe this person was a suicide bomber. If so, then their actions were commendable. If not, then those responsible for the incident need to be charged. edit: 'those responsible' doesnt necessarily mean those that actually shot him. |
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I agree. All this crap about the 'blitz spirit' is just...crap. I don't want to take a chance of being blown up, noone sane does. I have to go out to earn a living and i have to use the underground because transporters don't exist. Whats really going through everyones head is 'theres a remote possibility of me being blown up if i decide to go to work, theres a real possibility of me being fired if i don't' Im not sure who the people who bang on about how much better we are at dealing with this than any 'other people' are trying to kid. I have to earn my bread. Thats what drives me, ****ing capitalism not bullshit nationalism. |
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On a sidenote, it does seem like cold blooded murder to me. I cant understand why the police would follow him to the tube station, and then let him enter it, without stopping him beforehand? What exactly were they expecting to happen? If they believed he was carrying a bomb, why not confront him before he entered the station? What possible justificaiton is there for allowing someone you think is carrying a bomb to walk into a crowded tube station in front of your eyes? Were they thinking this was like a drugs bust where you have to wait until the last minute to see the dealer in the process of selling his stash? And given that he wasnt actually carrying anything (apparently), what precise reason did they have to believe he was, other than that they found his address in the possessions of a bomber? Were there any reasons whatsoever to believe this person had links to terrorism?
I hope more facts will come out later because the story so far makes no sense ; I'd like to think that nothing will be supressed. |
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Not that I experienced it but I also think that the 'Blitz Spirit' during the Blitz was a myth. then, like now people have to get on with their lives. You can talk about how great people were with dealing ith it but they didn't exactly have any choice. I would bet that if the coud have afforded it, most people would have left the country.
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Sure, the newspapers are going to be calling for fascism - that's what they're there for. I also wouldn't call them particularly in touch (or at least, not in touch with people who live in London - they might represent the home counties quite well, I'm not sure). In Britain after Diana died you had media nonsense for at least a week where no sane words could be heard. But only 1/2 days later in comedy clubs there were jokes about it (and at her expense). These jokes were not heard on TV/radio and any foriegn witnesses would genuinely think that "the country was in mourning". I'm sure the same could be said of America. I'm sure plenty of people (even in NY) shrugged off 9/11 to an extent, but they're not the voices we get to hear about. |
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This fellow who got shot 5 time by the police because they _tought_ he were a terrorist, is confirmed NOT to be linked to the terrorism. Congrats to the London police, you're now murderers.
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Before you could say the police were murders, you'd have to show that the situation was mishandled. As I said before, it certainly does look that way, but actually establishing this requires more than just showing the man was innocent. |
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Better take the French and Germans in as well, just to be certain, eh ;) |
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Muslims should always make sure they don't enter and exit houses under surveillance and then run through a crowded area. </more sarcasm> |
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... OMG...he was Muslim. |
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What i don't seem to understand is that the government seems to want to legislate against the preparation of terrorism, when they have such a provision under the Terrorism Act anyway. By all means, they should make phone tap evidence available in terrorist cases for scrutiny, simply because of the security concerns we have, it seems prudent to do so. Aside from that we don't need any 'radical' anti-terror measures, they are already here.
The only way we can do better is to ensure better physical security that is reasonably practical and cost-effective. Simply re-legislating for the sake of it to show that someone is doing something about it makes little to no sense. |
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I strongly think that any forms of action to stop something, no matter what it is, is not worth it if innocents are killed/imprisoned. I would rather live in fear in a free society then comfort in a shoot-before-thinking society. I can accept that people are unjustly stopped, detained and even imprisoned (for a few hours anyway) to stop massive killings of innocents, but to KILL a innocent person is too extreme. |
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This shooting on the tube is simply a case of self defence and whether that self defence was warranted or excessive from the perspective of the person who shot the guy.
An innocent may have died, this is regrettable - but this is no different to a police officer shooting someone he believes to be a dangerous armed criminal. |
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An English guy who works at Alexander's of London here in Hanau said Jean Charles de Menezes was an illegal alien and the reason he ran was because he did not want to be deported. I did a quick search of the news and could not verify that information. Anyone on here seen something indicating he was in Britain illegaly? I found one site that said he was working in London legally, but the site seems to be an anti-Semitic propaganda site. At least they blamed Israel for the guy's death.
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Knowing what the poilce did at the time or thought they knew, if they had held back and the suspect had jumped onto the train and blew the shit out of it, do you suppose there would have been any criticisim? Do you think it would have been justified?
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He was legal.
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The point of concern was that he already was on the train, he either tripped or was pushed (or a combination of the two) on to the floor of the train having run. Whilst on the floor and with the police grappling (or by other accounts with the police still at the door) they shot him 5 times. |
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Where they breed 'em stupid?! |
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